The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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Moldyoldie

Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 01:28:02 PM
I am now on headphones back on No 5.

I knew this piece from LP from when I was about 12. The first live performance I attended was marred by clapping coming in, halting and restarting before the final chords had been played.

At another performance the conductor explained the false endings and that he would be clear to both orchestra and audience when the final notes had been played. We all got the message.

Mike
Karajan got around the problem by merely ignoring the score. ;D To be honest, it sounds better...imho.
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

Sergeant Rock

#561
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 17, 2010, 12:05:30 PM
Okay, I gave it a shot, and once again was flabbergasted by it.  To me it is dull, lifeless, mushy, soft, and lackluster, almost completely devoid of energy and commitment, as if the entire orchestra is just going through the motions--and barely at that!  Every entrance is spongy, the horns are distant, the timpani almost non-existent, the strings wimpy, and the winds often sound as if they're phoning it in.  There's no attack, no edginess, no disquieting agitation in buzzing strings and questioning winds and braying horns, no power, no majesty, no sense of impending inevitability.  Any other recording (at least among the 20 or so I've heard) is substantially better, even Salonen.

;D :D ;D  David, you actually made me laugh out loud. I too own many versions (18) and I love Rattle's Fifths (own both the CBSO and Philh actually). There must be something seriously wrong with your ears...or mine  ;) I'm too lazy, and tired, now to explain why I like it so I'll let Gramophone have a few words here (this review written in 1984):

"Simon Rattle's account of the Fifth Symphony has been greeted with wide acclaim and has also been showered with awards. Its merits have been detailed at some length in these columns and elsewhere, and a further hearing in the CD format serves to reaffirm the strength of its claims on the allegiance of Sibelians. Quite simply it is the most impressive and satisfying account of the Symphony to have appeared since the Bernstein (CBS 61806, 8/77—nla) and Karajan accounts of the mid-1960s (DG) in a field that has always been highly competitive."

Of course that proves nothing since we all know British critics worship at The Church of Saint Simon  ;)  I'll try to get back to this topic tomorrow.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Moldyoldie on March 17, 2010, 01:51:56 PM
Karajan got around the problem by merely ignoring the score. ;D To be honest, it sounds better...imho.

I don't agree with here. I hate the way Karajan rushes the chords.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Moldyoldie

#563
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2010, 01:58:54 PM
I don't agree with here. I hate the way Karajan rushes the chords.

Sarge
I could never understand the musical reasoning for the protracted pauses; they sound like a mere attention-getting contrivance, hardly inevitable.  As in Karajan's entire interpretation, the final chords spring inevitably from what immediately precedes them.
"I think the problem with technology is that people use it because it's around.  That is disgusting and stupid!  Please quote me."
- Steve Reich

Scarpia

Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 01:28:02 PM
My pleasue, though I can hardly claim credit. I am now on headphones back on No 5.

I knew this piece from LP from when I was about 12. The first live performance I attended was marred by clapping coming in, halting and restarting before the final chords had been played.

At another performance the conductor explained the false endings and that he would be clear to both orchestra and audience when the final notes had been played. We all got the message.

Mike

I can imagine that it would work better in concert, since it would be apparent to the audience that the conductor is not finished conducting and that something more is going to happen.  I first heard the piece on CD in Jarvi's BIS recording, and I recall I was trotting up to the player in anticipation of ejecting the disc when an isolated chord suddenly blared from the speakers, then some time later, another, and another.    At least Karajan's old 60's recording has tape hiss between the chords to tip you off that it ain't over yet.

DavidRoss

Quote from: Moldyoldie on March 17, 2010, 02:20:12 PM
I could never understand the musical reasoning for the protracted pauses; they sound like a mere attention-getting contrivance, hardly inevitable.  As in Karajan's entire interpretation, the final chords spring inevitably from what immediately precedes them.
We had a surprisingly lengthy discussion regarding this very subject recently: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11930.msg293793.html#msg293793
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Anyone else love Sibelius' one mature string quartet, Voces Intimae (Op. 56)?

I've been listening to it seriously for the first time. It's like Bruckner's String Quintet, the only mature chamber piece by a composer known for his orchestral work, and as such offers a fascinating X-ray-like view into the way he structures things when he doesn't have the resources of a full orchestra. The Sibelius style is so distinctive that I'd guess it was him even if I didn't know it.

My version is the one by the Oslo String Quartet on CPO, coupled with another fascinating "name" quartet, Berg's Lyric Suite.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Brahmsian

Quote from: Velimir on March 18, 2010, 12:33:49 AM
Anyone else love Sibelius' one mature string quartet, Voces Intimae (Op. 56)?

Absolutely, it's a gem.  Along with Grieg's string quartet.

karlhenning

Quote from: knight on March 17, 2010, 01:21:24 PM
Gentlemen, I believe I have the rarely performed Cage Edition with 2 minutes 34 seconds silence at the end.

Take that baby to e-Bay, Mike!

knight66

Too late, Junius...to late, Too late!

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

DavidRoss

#570
Quote from: Velimir on March 18, 2010, 12:33:49 AM
Anyone else love Sibelius' one mature string quartet, Voces Intimae (Op. 56)?
Yes.  Still, I think he understood where his greatest gifts lay.  Given the legacy, I'm glad he chose to concentrate his efforts on orchestral music.   8)

Thanks for the reminder.  I haven't heard this piece for a while and it might be especially interesting after hearing Haydn's opus 20 for the past couple of days.  Think I'll pop in the New Helsinki Quartet's recording right now.

addendum:  As I listened to the New Helsinki's restrained, reflective performance, I was reminded of how unusually introspective this work was at the time--and after.  The title he gave it, Intimate Voices, may offer a key to richer appreciation of this under-appreciated masterpiece.  Written in 1908-09, between the Third and Fourth Symphonies, it is the first formal expression of the turning inward wrought by confrontation with his own mortality.

Sibelius's early works were big and bold, full of the brash extroversion of youth and the era's infatuation with Romantic expressiveness.  Following the success of his first two symphonies, early tone poems like Finlandia, and the 1905 revision of his violin concerto, Sibelius had already begun turning toward the formal concerns that would subsequently inform what he called his "absolute" music.  This preoccupation with form is first seen in his "neo-classical" Third Symphony of 1907.  He later described it in the famous meeting that same year with Mahler, during which Sibelius expressed his interest in achieving a lean, pure style built on the internal logical cohesiveness among all of a work's formal elements.  The next year he was diagnosed with cancer and a tumor was removed from his throat.  Voces Intimae followed.

Perhaps the title and the work describe his own internal voices during this pivotal time in his life.  To me it also suggests a clear determination, reflected in this and his subsequent work, to heed his own muses and to follow his own path as a composer, regardless of the opinions of critics (the Third had been a flop) and regardless of the fashionable trends in Paris and Vienna.  Instead of giving them the brightly colored cocktails they expected, he would offer the cool, clear spring water that nourished his own soul.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 18, 2010, 07:19:35 AM
addendum:  As I listened to the New Helsinki's restrained, reflective performance, I was reminded of how unusually introspective this work was at the time--and after.  The title he gave it, Intimate Voices, may offer a key to richer appreciation of this under-appreciated masterpiece.  Written in 1908-09, between the Third and Fourth Symphonies, it is the first formal expression of the turning inward wrought by confrontation with his own mortality.

It stands out in a couple of ways. First, it has 5 movements, which makes it different from all of the symphonies. It also makes use of the arch form that Bartok liked to use (2 allegros-2 scherzos-1 slow movement).

Also, the slow movement is unusually long and complex for Sibelius. One can hear it pointing forward to the Largo of the 4th Symphony.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Mirror Image

Aside from his symphonies, Sibelius' output is still strong and certainly demanding of attention. Kullervo is such a powerful work. Lemminkainen Suite is a beautiful work that I return to quite often. Tapiola, of course, is mesmerizing in its scope and vision. The Oceanides, Pohjola's Daughter, En Saga, and the Violin Concerto are especially fine. I haven't heard a piece of music by Sibelius that I didn't enjoy in some way or another.

Scarpia

Someone here suggested Colin Davis' recordings of the Sibelius symphonies with the Boston Symphony on Philips.  Well, I think I only have two discs of the Boston symphony in my entire collection, but I decided to try it, and listened to the Symphony No 7 today.  There was a lot to like about it.  The "perfume" of the opening was wonderfully done, those aggregations of dissonant notes from all parts of the orchestra that magically resolve.   Wonderful.  However, though Colin did a fine job, I can't help but feel that the BSO let him down.  The brass, in particular, tended to sound very shrill whenever they were called upon to play with power.  They just don't match the sound production of the truly first rate ensembles.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Scarpia on August 04, 2010, 09:45:36 PM
Someone here suggested Colin Davis' recordings of the Sibelius symphonies with the Boston Symphony on Philips.  Well, I think I only have two discs of the Boston symphony in my entire collection, but I decided to try it, and listened to the Symphony No 7 today.  There was a lot to like about it.  The "perfume" of the opening was wonderfully done, those aggregations of dissonant notes from all parts of the orchestra that magically resolve.   Wonderful.  However, though Colin did a fine job, I can't help but feel that the BSO let him down.  The brass, in particular, tended to sound very shrill whenever they were called upon to play with power.  They just don't match the sound production of the truly first rate ensembles.

I've never been a fan of the Boston Symphony Orchestra. The string section always disappoints me for that orchestra.

Colin Davis' best Sibelius cycle, in my opinion, was his LSO Live cycle. Here he has gained a lot of wisdom and even more personal insight into this music plus he had the great London Symphony at his command.

I'm not that enthralled with Davis' Sibelius anyway. I think too often he lacks the kind of power these symphonies need. He does better in the more introspective moments of the music, but I think he falls short on the climaxes.

Brian

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 04, 2010, 09:58:06 PM
I'm not that enthralled with Davis' Sibelius anyway. I think too often he lacks the kind of power these symphonies need. He does better in the more introspective moments of the music, but I think he falls short on the climaxes.

You betcha. In the LSO Live cycle, the very last chord of No 2 sputters and fades - a hugely underwhelming ending, especially compared to something like Barbirolli/RPO, which feels like entering heaven. I haven't listened to 1 or 3 from that cycle, but 6 is good, if a bit speedy, and the Seventh is definitely one of my favorite recordings.

Guido

#576
OK then - the orchestral songs... Four CDs I'm considering - I'd like all of them (of course!), but can people advise me?

These are the ones under consideration:




Top left says "The Orchestral Songs" - is this really all of them? There are arrangements on some other discs (I imagine they're orchestrations) - are any of these as good? I'm also wondering whether the box set (bottom right) is good enough as a whole to warrant the price - Don't have any of it except Luonnotar, but since this is one of those complete editions, surely there's going to be loads of unecessary guff?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Music-Voice-Orchestra/dp/B001PCWZLY/ref=mb_oe_o
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Mirror Image

#577
Quote from: Guido on August 11, 2010, 05:10:17 PM
OK then - the orchestral songs... Four CDs I'm considering - I'd like all of them (of course!), but can people advise me?

These are the ones under consideration:

 

I'm wondering whether the box set (the last one) is good enough as a whole to warrant the price - Don't have any of it except Luonnotar, but since this is one of those complete editions, surely there's going to be loads of unecessary guff?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Music-Voice-Orchestra/dp/B001PCWZLY/ref=mb_oe_o

A correction: Sibelius composed very little "unnecessary guff."

That said, if you're collecting BIS's Sibelius Editions, then that would be a very noteworthy set. The Ondine recording with Segerstam also looks quite tempting as I might even pick it up at some point.

I own a huge chunk of the BIS Sibelius recordings (a la The Essential Sibelius - 15-CD set), so I won't be picking up any more Sibelius BIS recordings anytime soon or unless something new comes out that looks interesting to me.

DavidRoss

#578
Quote from: Guido on August 11, 2010, 05:10:17 PM
OK then - the orchestral songs... Four CDs I'm considering - I'd like all of them (of course!), but can people advise me?

Top left says "The Orchestral Songs" - is this really all of them? There are arrangements on some other discs (I imagine they're orchestrations) - are any of these as good? I'm also wondering whether the box set (bottom right) is good enough as a whole to warrant the price - Don't have any of it except Luonnotar, but since this is one of those complete editions, surely there's going to be loads of unecessary guff?
Hey, Guido--you're in for a treat no matter which you choose.  I have the three single disc albums and about half of the recordings included in the BIS compendium, the complete contents of which are listed here: http://www.bis.se/bis_pages/PDF/BIS-CD-1906-08_contents.pdf

My favorite is the Isokoski/Segerstam disc.  This was Gramophone's CD of the year when it was released, for good reason.  It includes several songs not usually heard in this context, as they were originally written for voice and piano only, then later orchestrated by Sibelius or his son-in-law, Jussi Jalas.  I've split opinions regarding the other two single CDs.  I like the CBSO under Oramo very much and admire Mattila, but her performances tend toward the theatrical, and nearly half the songs are by Grieg, not Sibelius, though they are very fine as well.  The sound on the Panula disc is a touch strident, but Häggander is quite good--and so is Hynninen, but I really prefer the songs when performed by a soprano.  The recordings on that disc are included in the BIS box, along with Vänskä's Kullervo, worthwhile if you don't already own a good recording of it.

"M forever" and I swapped views about most of these discs a couple of years back, either here or on the old archived forum.  If you're really interested in more detail, you could search for those posts.

I don't think you'll go wrong with any of them--each would serve as a fine introduction to Sibelius's vocal music, which is far less well known than deserved.


Edited to correct strangely incomplete sentence. 
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Guido

Thanks for the tips guys - I opted for the Isokoski for the time being - I'll think about expanding later. She has such a beautiful voice, though I am attracted to Mattila's more dramatic and as you say theatrical voice too - maybe that disc will have to follow one day!
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away