The Snowshoed Sibelius

[Elgarian]

This might be more up your alley, Alan, and you can listen to it through Naxos streaming:

OK Dave, where are you? This box arrived this morning and I've listened to the 1st and 3rd symphonies so far.

The 1st is, surely, the finest (that is, closest approach to my dream version) I've ever heard. There's no shortage of what I want (ice, cold air, northern skies, windblown pines), and there's also a kind of only-just-controlled wildness - a feeling that the lid is only just being kept on something huge. The sheer weight of the sweeping climaxes is staggering. I very much doubt that I'm going to hear a closer approach to what I seem to have been searching for than this.

The 3rd is very different - not so wild, the sense of control rather tighter. The beginning is like seeing a light through crystal - exquisite. I wondered how he'd tackle that somewhat 'classical' feeling that attaches itself to this symphony in places, and it seems to me that he's bang up to the job. When I got to the closing few minutes I couldn't believe the sheer inexorable mounting pressure. Not wild, in this case - it's the dynamism of the approaching steam train rather than the leaping tiger - but my goodness, the hair on the neck is set a-prickling and no mistake.

This box is unbelievable, and I'm wondering at this point just how much dust my other Sibelius symphonies are going to gather from here on. Thanks Dave, for the recommendation - not the first recommendation of this that I've seen, but the most effective in terms of the end result.

[Brian]

Alan,

That post made me so, so very happy. Your description of those performances corresponds exactly with my own feelings - reading the post was one of those experiences which made me say to myself, "Hey, I feel exactly those same things too - I just didn't have the words." Especially these words...

[No 1] a kind of only-just-controlled wildness - a feeling that the lid is only just being kept on something huge. [No 3] The beginning is like seeing a light through crystal - exquisite. ...When I got to the closing few minutes I couldn't believe the sheer inexorable mounting pressure. ... the dynamism of the approaching steam train

Yes, yes, yes! Yes! That's it! That's what I hear! I'm so glad you hear it too!

And as much as I dread to bring this up so quickly... it sounds to me like you are ready to give No 7 another try.

Approach it (with Segerstam, of course) from exactly the same direction you approach Nos 1 and 3. In this conductor's world, the First, Third, and Seventh are all on the same road; No 7 is just a few blocks down, in a new neighborhood. Actually, it may even be closer than that. The Seventh is the familiar territory of the old symphonies made harder to see, perhaps by the blanket of the night: by the light of the stars, one can sense the shapes of the previous symphonies out there somewhere, in the dark. The fleet heroism and characterful winds of No 3; the slowly mounting despair of No 1; the sleek beauty of No 6's outer edges; the spiritual triumph of No 5. All of them are passed by on Sibelius' little nighttime walk through his own past.

But...

You should of course judge for yourself!   

A side note: No 7 was my first Sibelius symphony (!), and initially I found it spectacularly boring; then I found it spiritual in a monastic sort of way, like fasting or praying all day in a cold cell, thanks to Petri Sakari on Naxos; now, thanks to Segerstam (and also Colin Davis on LSO Live), I hear it as a summary of all that came before, a return to Sibelius' old haunts, a nearly-defeated exorcism of all the demons.

[Brian]

As a side note, I am on another of my major Sibelius swings. Approximately three times a year, I go through a "Sibelius phase" where I listen to him almost compulsively, in fact almost exclusively, for a few weeks, then abruptly stop. For the rest of the year, his music goes almost completely unplayed by me. It lies dormant for months; this summer it was very nearly dead. I tried listening a few times and rejected the music each time, not in the mood, not ready, just not in Sibelius' frame of mind. From the outside, his is a strange mind, and one I dread entering. I try to put off the "phase" as long as possible. But that just makes it more intense when it takes me over.

To give you an idea of the intensity of my Sibelius phases, and the droughts in between, I glanced at my listening log.

In the last 12 days, I've listened to Sibelius 15 times. 12 of those listens were in the last 4 days, including the Violin Concerto and three symphonies on 21 September.
In the 120 days before this stretch, I listened to Sibelius 17 times, and that includes a MusicWeb assignment of "Finnish Orchestral Favorites."

[Elgarian]

Yes, yes, yes! Yes! That's it! That's what I hear! I'm so glad you hear it too!

This is what makes a forum like this so valuable. There is no one in my circle of friends (some of whom are great music-lovers) and acquaintances who'd have understood what I was talking about.

And as much as I dread to bring this up so quickly... it sounds to me like you are ready to give No 7 another try.

You're right, Brian, it's certainly time, especially since I'm on a Sibelian roll, and since I'm willing to sell my soul to this Segerstam guy. I found myself listening to a bit of the 4th, actually, and thought 'hey, this is starting to be something I might be able to get into, at last' - but I'd already been thinking I'd have another go at  the 7th and your comments will reinforce that determination. I'll carry your words (' the 7th is just a few blocks down') in there with me.

[Brian]

And likewise I will carry your words with me into the heart of the Fourth; I listened to the Fourth just a few days ago, for only the second time this year, and it is still a foreign land to me. It's like being trapped inside the belly of a terrifying beast, with a little torch that just lets me see the victims around me. If you'll head down the "street" of No 7, I'll try to make sense of the savage No 4. 

[DavidRoss]

Hey, Alan--I'm glad you're getting something out of the music.  And I'm glad that Brian's plugging away at the fourth.  It's well worth it. 

Segerstam/HPO's Tapiola & Lemminkäinen Legends is also a pretty good disc, especially if you like his lush, dramatic style.

[Elgarian]

As a side note, I am on another of my major Sibelius swings. Approximately three times a year, I go through a "Sibelius phase" where I listen to him almost compulsively, in fact almost exclusively, for a few weeks, then abruptly stop. For the rest of the year, his music goes almost completely unplayed by me.

I experience similar swings myself, not just with Sibelius but with everything. My listening progresses in a series of quantum jumps, or something like Kuhn's paradigm shifts, but there's no predicting how long the gaps will be between shifts. If I get started on a Handel phase, then only Handel will do, and if in the meantime my wife sold off my entire collection of Elgar I might not notice for weeks. Or months.

It seems to be the way I'm wired up, so I just go with the flow. It's been years since I last listened to Sibelius. I tried him again some months ago but it generated just a damp squib rather than a real revival. This time it looks more promising, and while I'm sure Segerstam has a big part to play in that, it's interesting that I've had a big revival of Wagner in the meantime. My brain must be in search of more 'Northern-ness'.

[Elgarian]

Segerstam/HPO's Tapiola & Lemminkäinen Legends is also a pretty good disc, especially if you like his lush, dramatic style.

Noted - thanks!

[Benji]

Segerstam/HPO's Tapiola & Lemminkäinen Legends is also a pretty good disc, especially if you like his lush, dramatic style.

Seconded! I love that disc - it is my favourite recording of Tapiola. The Lemminkäinen is also right up there, though maybe edged out by the performance conducted by Mikko Franck, also on the Ondine label. I'd be happy with either disc for Lemminkäinen, but as it happens I wouldn't be without either disc as the Franck disc also has my favourite En Saga (it's a corker!).

[vandermolen]

Seconded! I love that disc - it is my favourite recording of Tapiola. The Lemminkäinen is also right up there, though maybe edged out by the performance conducted by Mikko Franck, also on the Ondine label. I'd be happy with either disc for Lemminkäinen, but as it happens I wouldn't be without either disc as the Franck disc also has my favourite En Saga (it's a corker!).

Actually I was listening to Segerstam's earlier Danish RSO recording of Tapiola this week (Chandos, with Symphony No 3) and I thought that it was the favourite of my multiple copies of Tapiola (my favourite work by Sibelius). The Helsinki version is also terrific

[Benji]

Actually I was listening to Segerstam's earlier Danish RSO recording of Tapiola this week (Chandos, with Symphony No 3) and I thought that it was the favourite of my multiple copies of Tapiola (my favourite work by Sibelius). The Helsinki version is also terrific

The earlier Segerstam set used to be very cheap, but no longer! (it does seem classical discs on Amazon marketplace have increased an awful lot recently, even used. Anyone else noticed this?)

I'll see if they have it on eMusic to download...

[Scarpia]

The earlier Segerstam set used to be very cheap, but no longer! (it does seem classical discs on Amazon marketplace have increased an awful lot recently, even used. Anyone else noticed this?)

You call $14 for a Sibelius symphony cycle expensive?

[karlhenning]

Compared to Ben's initial acquisition of the Blomstedt cycle, none of them is expensive ; )

[Benji]

Compared to Ben's initial acquisition of the Blomstedt cycle, none of them is expensive ; )

It still hurts...

(Also the Chandos Segerstam set is £30 on the UK site here - I didn't check Amazon US. At any rate an eMusic subscription is significantly cheaper and more convenient)

[Brian]

Compared to Ben's initial acquisition of the Blomstedt cycle, none of them is expensive ; )

Cross-post from something I wrote in another thread:

Amazon.co.uk has "1 new copy" of the Bernstein NYPO Sibelius cycle for £999.00. The seller's name is, wonderfully, "pridestuff."

[Scarpia]

It still hurts...

(Also the Chandos Segerstam set is £30 on the UK site here - I didn't check Amazon US. At any rate an eMusic subscription is significantly cheaper and more convenient)

The Chandos cycle is long deleted from the catalog and may be considered a rare item.  The same recordings have been issued by Brilliant classics, and those are quite cheap.

[Benji]

The Chandos cycle is long deleted from the catalog and may be considered a rare item.  The same recordings have been issued by Brilliant classics, and those are quite cheap.

Ohhhhhh yeah, so it has. I see it now - £10 - that's much more like it!

Thanks! 

[DavidRoss]

The Lemminkäinen is also right up there, though maybe edged out by the performance conducted by Mikko Franck, also on the Ondine label. I'd be happy with either disc for Lemminkäinen, but as it happens I wouldn't be without either disc as the Franck disc also has my favourite En Saga (it's a corker!).

Ditto!  Best En Saga by far and my favorite Lemminkäinen.  Wish we had more Sibelius from Franck.

[Elgarian]

If you'll head down the "street" of No 7, I'll try to make sense of the savage No 4. 

Oh Brian, I am struggling here. I listened to it once this morning, and as always, despite approaching it with optimism, I made almost nothing of it. So this evening I thought: "This is silly. How can a 20 minute piece of music, by a composer I admire so much, be so resistant that even after something approaching 20 listenings over a lifetime, it still defeats me?" So I tried again, and this time I listened in a way that I've never done before, with a piece of paper in front of me, jotting down notes as I listened to see if something coherent would emerge. I abandoned the experiment after 10 minutes, because I couldn't think of anything to write. Since I did make these notes, I'll reproduce them here, but they merely mark out my hopeless failure as a listener.

00.00 Slow sequence of rising notes
00.50 Light tune with pastoral flavour
01.20 Getting more serious. Growing in urgency.
02.00 Simple 4-note pattern begins
02.30 Hymn-like tune begins on strings. Intensity building up.
03.55 Strange fade-out?
04.00 More powerful again
04.20 And slackens off. Seems just like doodling.
04.45 Getting really good. Going somewhere at last!
05.00 Big climax. Really good.
05.30 Powerful strings
05.45 Drum! What's this?
06.00 6-note pattern on brass
06.20 More doodling
06.40 Building up again. But comes to nought
07.00 Folksy bit. Is this new movement? Doodling.
07.30 Big noise. Fades off.
08.00 Fast woodwind passages. Or is this start of next movement?
08.45 Where's this going?
09.00 Zithery stuff. Is this angry?
10.00 Give up.

I just can't hear any coherence here apart from sounds of a vaguely Sibelian character making fleeting statements that evaporate as soon as they're made. I can't detect any connection between any given passage and any other passage. I just don't know what to do. I think I don't have whatever perceptive equipment is needed to get anything out of this.

Gosh Brian, I hope you had better luck with the 4th. This has certainly taken the wind out of my sails!

[Brian]

Do you know, Alan, now I can hear the Seventh your way! Well, that's disingenuous: I'm not actually listening to it but playing it through in my head. It's not disjointed, but it is - darn, what's the word - well, I'll just start the sentence over. It's only got one theme, and that one theme appears only three and a half times, and only as a sort of bookend to the sections of the piece. And the sections... those flutes at 00.50, they come back at the very end, but that's it; the ascending figure of the beginning only really matters in that it hints at the fact that the big tune is also ascending; the hymn never comes back; you didn't even get to the most contained part, the very clearly defined scherzo. Hmmm.

The Fourth...

I can "get" and even admire the first four minutes of the first movement. It presages Gorecki or Metamorphosen, this insistent, depressive harping on the same thing over and over, building to a climax. But then the movement just sort of wanders. The scherzo wanders, even. The slow movement is as shapeless and tuneless and "home"-less as the high modernists. The finale wanders but "I get it": he's trying to make some sense of the first three movements, but he just can't.

I do think I've made a bit of headway. First, I recognize some continuities: solo cello bits all around, for instance. But then there's the solo oboe in the last minute of the piece, that has nothing to do with anything else.

The headway is this. Seems to me that previous composers all expressed confusion and desolation and frustration by taking a nice minor-key tune, developing it, and using it to wring the life out of you. Tchaikovsky Six. Sibelius here is making you feel all those adjectives, by writing music that is confused and frustrated, and confusing and frustrating. It's like Lost in Translation, where Sofia Coppola tries to convey how bored Bill Murray is by making the whole movie really boring.

So maybe the headway is that I'm starting to figure out what the strategy is. It's a broken jigsaw puzzle of a symphony. But then, I didn't like Lost in Translation either.