The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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Elgarian

@Brian

Those posts are fresh bread to a starving man.

I've printed out your list and the recommended essay, and will return to the fray with new hope. It may take a while to absorb all this, and maybe several listenings, but I'll be back with a progress report eventually. Thank you.

Guido

Quote from: Elgarian on September 17, 2010, 06:53:24 AM
No, I've given up on 4, 6 and 7. I've tried them so many times over the years, really really wanting to get into them; but they leave me feeling bad-tempered and dissatisfied. I just can't hear any proper tunes.

I'm absolutely staggered by this discussion - these three have been my favourites (most of all no.7) since I first heard them - I sort of assumed that most people approximately thought that these three were the best ones (though all are incomparably valuable). The seventh is for me one of the most satisfying listening experiences in all of music, and I remember having the rare experience when I first heard it of a masterpiece of the highest order unfurling its glowing tendrils before my eyes... the return at the end of the horns and brass where the piece seems to come back into focus in a completely unexpected and totally satisfying way is a miracle every time I hear it.

Barber of coursed partially based his beautiful first symphony on Sibelius' 7th, and wrote himself a little analysis which I'll try and dig out. I'm sorry that I can't myself be more helpful to enjoying these wonderful pieces.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Guido

Here it is - I'm not sure how much sense you might make of it, but what it appears to be doing is tracing the development of these mottos (if not quite themes).

Barber is more economical in a sense in his symphony, in that everything stems from the single opening theme - its a sort of four in one structure, the opening Allegro ma non troppo theme becoming the scherzo theme with the same note order but different rhythms. Again, the same is true of the ravishing adagio that follows, which goes straight into the passacaglia finale, with you guessed it, the same theme as the passacaglia bass line, now hugely stretched out on the cellos and basses. I love this symphony, but it's not as superlative as the Sibelius of course.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2010, 12:24:03 PM
Does anybody know where on the forum M forever (or someone of similar bent) argued that Every Conductor Conducts the Seventh Wrong? He was referring to the very last bars, where an important violin phrase goes unheard in every extant recording because of orchestral balances. If you know where that discussion is, please let me know.

The discussion is in the "Sibelius' tricky 7th Symphony" thread in the Great Recordings and Review section:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5210.msg126624.html#msg126624


Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

#704
Quote from: Brian on September 25, 2010, 02:56:19 PM

My own introduction to the work, and still an extremely good one, is this essay which helps explain some of the history as well as supplying a sort of "narrative."

Thanks for the link, Brian. The Inkspot Sibelius Nutcase and I have something in common:

"This [Berglund/Bournemouth] is my top recommendation...of the full cycle, bar none."

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Elgarian

Brian, I've just listened again with your list in front of me. I've still got a long way to go, but I can already say that I got more from this one listening that all the previous 20 listenings spread over the last lord-knows-how-many years. Most particularly, this is the first time ever that I've understood the ending.

Scarpia

Quote from: Elgarian on September 26, 2010, 11:19:07 AM
Brian, I've just listened again with your list in front of me. I've still got a long way to go, but I can already say that I got more from this one listening that all the previous 20 listenings spread over the last lord-knows-how-many years. Most particularly, this is the first time ever that I've understood the ending.

I've always enjoyed the 7th, but I think I will have Brian's sketch in from of me for the next listen as well.

Elgarian

Perhaps it was foolish to listen yet again so quickly, but in terms of the result, I think not. This time I read the essay before listening, and then listened again with your list in front of me. Blimey. Brian, you've given me a huge leg up here: I 've never come close to getting this much from this music before, and I think from here on, I might even be able to resolve some of my remaining puzzles myself on further listens, having now acquired some firm base camps, as it were. By the way, there were two or three moments when I thought I caught transient quotations from the earlier symphonies - is that just me being over-imaginative, or are they really there?

But OK, OK, for the first time I'm getting some sort of grip on the structure of this, and I can hardly express the difference it's making.

Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on September 26, 2010, 11:23:49 AM
I've always enjoyed the 7th, but I think I will have Brian's sketch in from of me for the next listen as well.
The essay is worth reading too. The combination of Brian's sketch plus essay is particularly helpful. But of course I'm coming from Nowhereville, so the difference on arriving at Somewhereville is really pretty striking!

DavidRoss

Wow!  Delightful to see the interest displayed in the past couple of days.  The 4th & the 7th repay the effort (as do they all), but there may be such a thing as trying too hard.  For me the 4th vies with the 5th as my fave, but that's not to slight the 7th, 6th, or 3rd.  Perhaps my favorite 4th is Berglund's latest, with the COE.

Notes that may be of interest on symphony 4:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_04.htm
http://www.sfsymphony.org/music/ProgramNotes.aspx?id=38634

& re. symphony 7:
http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_sinf_07.htm

and here's the NPR Performance Today series on Sibelius with commentary on each of the symphonies from Michael Steinberg:
http://www.npr.org/programs/pt/features/sibeliussym.html
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Brian

Quote from: Scarpia on September 26, 2010, 11:23:49 AM
I've always enjoyed the 7th, but I think I will have Brian's sketch in from of me for the next listen as well.

Quote from: Elgarian on September 26, 2010, 12:00:29 PM
The essay is worth reading too. The combination of Brian's sketch plus essay is particularly helpful. But of course I'm coming from Nowhereville, so the difference on arriving at Somewhereville is really pretty striking!

I do strongly encourage you guys to read the link Sergeant Rock kindly posted above, too: especially, do read the two posts by M Forever on that page, and then if you like, the discussion on the following page between M, Eyeresist, and Jezetha. As you will see  ;D , that discussion was hugely helpful to my own scaling of the mountain - it was my base camp, to use Alan's words. :)

Quote from: Elgarian on September 26, 2010, 11:57:57 AM
Perhaps it was foolish to listen yet again so quickly, but in terms of the result, I think not. This time I read the essay before listening, and then listened again with your list in front of me. Blimey. Brian, you've given me a huge leg up here: I 've never come close to getting this much from this music before, and I think from here on, I might even be able to resolve some of my remaining puzzles myself on further listens, having now acquired some firm base camps, as it were. By the way, there were two or three moments when I thought I caught transient quotations from the earlier symphonies - is that just me being over-imaginative, or are they really there?

But OK, OK, for the first time I'm getting some sort of grip on the structure of this, and I can hardly express the difference it's making.

So so glad to read this! I definitely think there are quotations from and allusions to the earlier symphonies (and the violin concerto). Last night while writing the notes, I heard a new one, though I can't remember where. As I've mentioned, the Seventh was my first Sibelius symphony (my first Sibelius anything!), and when I heard my second Sibelius symphony - No 5 - for the first time, I spent the whole first and second movements thinking, "This sounds like notes for the Seventh. That's just a rough draft version of X moment in the Seventh, the slow movement is notes for the pastorale...[etc.]" Then the swan hymn came up and my rational brain ceased functioning entirely.

This thread's made me very happy. I feel like it's one of the best most interesting discussions I've had on GMG. Will give the Fourth a few days before trying again - aided by DavidRoss' two exceptionally helpful links.

Oh, actually the essay David posted about the Seventh is really interesting. Now I'm starting to hear that opening ascending scale and flute tune all over the symphony.  :o  Oooh, and the comparison to the Third Symphony is really interesting. Thanks, Dave! This just keeps getting better!

Elgarian

#711
What an entirely facinating journey this is proving to be. Forgive me if I ramble too much in my attempt to make sense of it.

Today I did two new things. I read the essay at Dave's link (most interesting - let's call it Essay X); and listened to Vanska's recording instead of Segerstam's, with Essay X in front of me. The result demonstrates just what a fragile beast this is that I'm grasping, here.

First, Vanska's timings are substantially different, so Brian's sketch becomes harder to follow. Second, with the timings up the creek, I found myself frequently losing the connection between what I was reading in Essay X, and what I was hearing in the music. Now I did not panic. No sir. Because now, you see, I have my base camps. If I got into a muddle, I just waited to arrive at the next base camp to sort things out. But so often I got lost, in between the camps. I arrived at the end feeling vaguely dissatisfied; Vanska seems to be a cool customer compared to Segerstam, and while I sometimes felt that Segerstam was showing me the mysteries of the universe, Vanska seemed to be telling me a theory about them. I exaggerate, to try to express the really quite subtle differences in feeling. Incidentally, I only hear the two notes at the end. I can't hear the other two that are mentioned in the M Forever discussion.

So next time I'm going to go back to Segerstam. But my main point in this interim ramble is just to express how insecure it all feels. Do you know what this experience reminds me of? Learning how to look at Cezanne. It's not hard to 'learn' how to look at Impressionist paintings, and when we come to Cezanne many of the same techniques are there: the fragmented colour; the use of clearly visible separate brushstrokes; the feeling of an enveloppe of atmospheric character. And yet, in Cezanne all these things are used to very different purpose and if we insist on looking at him through an Impressionist lens, we get it all wrong, and feel frustrated because there's so much there with which we feel familiar. It's like that with this Sibelius 7th. It has Sibelius written all over it. It has all his characteristic touches. But he's telling the tale in a completely different way, and it's taken me all this time to realise that it's no use listening to it as if it were 'old' Sibelius, even though superficially it sounds as if I might be able to. Hence the frustration. What a great lesson to learn. Well, partly learned, anyway. I fancy this is not a short road I'm on.


Benji

For anyone who wants to take a wee break from this fascinating seriousness...

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2010/09/sibelius-jean-sibelius.html

*tee hee*


Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Elgarian on September 27, 2010, 10:42:20 AM
Incidentally, I only hear the two notes at the end. I can't hear the other two that are mentioned in the M Forever discussion.

I've been methodically listening to all my Sevenths (19 on CD...yeah, I know, I'm a sick boy) and so far the only recording where I can actually hear the strings D-C is the Järvi/Gothenburg. Searching, too, for a recording that doesn't stretch the final B-C beyond the note values. Vänskä comes closest to playing it as written.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

DavidRoss

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 28, 2010, 03:06:48 AM
I've been methodically listening to all my Sevenths (19 on CD...yeah, I know, I'm a sick boy) and so far the only recording where I can actually hear the strings D-C is the Järvi/Gothenburg. Searching, too, for a recording that doesn't stretch the final B-C beyond the note values. Vänskä comes closest to playing it as written.

Sarge
19! My, you are over the edge, dude!  My count, not including duplicates between single issues and box sets, is...19! Off the cuff I'd say my fave is probably Vänskä, but Berglund and Blomstedt sure beckon--and so does Maazel/WP, which I've not heard in quite some time so will remedy post haste!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Scarpia

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 28, 2010, 10:12:22 AM
19! My, you are over the edge, dude!  My count, not including duplicates between single issues and box sets, is...19! Off the cuff I'd say my fave is probably Vänskä, but Berglund and Blomstedt sure beckon--and so does Maazel/WP, which I've not heard in quite some time so will remedy post haste!

Having only 12 on the shelf, I certainly feel like a bush leaguer.   :(

Brian

8. I'm definitely still an amateur.

Brian

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 28, 2010, 03:06:48 AM
I've been methodically listening to all my Sevenths (19 on CD...yeah, I know, I'm a sick boy) and so far the only recording where I can actually hear the strings D-C is the Järvi/Gothenburg. Searching, too, for a recording that doesn't stretch the final B-C beyond the note values. Vänskä comes closest to playing it as written.

Sarge

If you strain your ears, you can hear the violins play D-C behind the brass intermittently, like a view from a train window that comes and goes between the trees, on the Sakari/Iceland recording.

Scarpia

Quote from: Brian on September 28, 2010, 11:21:59 AM
If you strain your ears, you can hear the violins play D-C behind the brass intermittently, like a view from a train window that comes and goes between the trees, on the Sakari/Iceland recording.

After the big discussion of this issue (driven by the former M forever) I remember listening for it and I didn't find it difficult to hear in any of the couple of recordings I tried, although it was often played in a way that seemed to assume that it was something you were not supposed to explicitly notice.