The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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karlhenning

I worry about Leibowitz, that he would go to the length of writing a book of that title . . . I thought it was just a remark . . . .

The Sibelius Fifth is on at Symphony this coming weekend!

Brian

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 07, 2011, 05:58:00 AM
I worry about Leibowitz, that he would go to the length of writing a book of that title . . . I thought it was just a remark . . . .

The Sibelius Fifth is on at Symphony this coming weekend!


Envy, Karl, envy!

Also, reassurance: I now hold "Sibelius le plus mauvais compositeur du monde" in my hands, and it is not a book, as commonly reported, but rather a pamphlet. It's No 37 in a series of pamphlets called "Brimborions," or roughly, bonbons, useless bits, things of no value. Thankfully for my planned translation attempt, the text runs to a mere two pages in length.

DavidRoss

"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Brian

Quote from: DavidRoss on February 07, 2011, 07:32:24 AM
http://www.antonin-serviere.com/site/Texts_files/Sibelius-Reception.pdf

Thanks, David, that's an interesting article, although I'm now sad to have missed the Sibelius Conference 2010 by a matter of weeks. :(

The word count on Leibowitz' pamphlet is a mere 695, of which the easiest to translate are possibly: "ces thèmes répparaissent, sans rime ni raison"  ;D

mjwal

#784
Thank you for this pdf, very interesting, as is the Sibelius-Adorno thread. The author's suggestion (in A's defence, one must assume) that Adorno's comments were "clearly incidental" and "should not have been taken maybe so seriously"  is however not very convincing - Adorno hated the way Sibelius was idolised in the USA (where he lived during the emigration) to the detriment of other more radical composers like Schoenberg, and later did everything he could to damage the composer's standing in Germany*, where   another greater writer, artist and man, Busoni, had championed the Finnish composer in concerts back in the days of the Weimar Republic - as he did Bartoḱ's work, which Adorno considered promising but limited by folkloristic tendencies and thus compromised, which is similar to Leibowitz's criticism of the Hungarian composer.. The piece in which he dismissed Sibelius' whole oeuvre also cunningly chooses to concentrate on what may be S's most critically praised work, the 4th symphony, describing it as technically inept ant repetitive - hardly what one might consider an "incidental" criticism.  Adorno's famous attack on jazz (""Life in the late capitalist era is a constant initiation rite. Everyone must show that he wholly identifies himself with the power which is belaboring him. This occurs in the principle of jazz syncopation, which simultaneously derides stumbling and makes it a rule") was also intended to shame music-lovers into shunning such music, as were his attacks on Stravinsky as "regressive". With respect to the latter, there is a revealing anecdote told by a contemporary witness whose name I have unfortunately forgotten: the latter was sitting at a concert some time in the 50s and realised that Adorno was in the next seat clapping enthusiastically after a performance of Stravinsky's Piano Concerto. He then asked Adorno, with whom he was acquainted, what had happened since his famous philippic against Stravinsky's work in The Philosophy of New Music - the latter said that such polemics were unnecessary now, since the imminent danger that he might supplant Schoenberg had passed, in other words serialism ruled OK...In any case, I can report that in the 60s and after there was almost complete ignorance of Sibelius among music lovers in Germany, where I have lived on and off since 1965, that the only two renowned German conductors to perform/record his work after WW2 were Karajan and Rosbaud - and  that a leading music critic whom I know is still totally impervious to any criticism of his hero, Adorno...
*He also wished to discredit Sibelius for having lent his name to the Goebbels-organised artistic collaboration between Germany and other nations, I believe.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

jlaurson

Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2011, 05:21:24 AM
Of course, your dismissive remark about "someone quot[ing] Adorno to project intellectual prowess" is not appreciated; I was reading his book and taking notes...
;D

Well, it's heartening (and appreciated) that you didn't seem to take it in too bad a spirit.  :)

Cheerio from Westminster,

jfl

Florestan

As a prominent member of the Frankfurt School, Adorno had an ideological axe to grind --- and to the totalitarian narrow-mindedness which is the inherent mark of any ideology fell victim not only Sibelius and Stravinsky, but also his own prose, as Brian testifies.  His opinion on these composers has the same level of authority as Schopenhauer's rejection of Wagner in the name of Mozart and Rossini: none at all. They are however instructive about how even some of the finest minds can display a considerable and lamentable obtuseness.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

jlaurson

Quote from: Florestan on February 09, 2011, 12:59:44 AM
...His opinion on these composers has the same level of authority as Schopenhauer's rejection of Wagner in the name of Mozart and Rossini: none at all...

The difference being: Schopenhauer is a pleasure to read. (Incidentally: where does Schopenhauer reject Wagner? I don't think I've read *that* part. He wouldn't have likely heard more than Rienzi, Flying D-Man, and Tannhaeuser, would he?)

Florestan

#788
Quote from: jlaurson on February 09, 2011, 02:35:17 AM
The difference being: Schopenhauer is a pleasure to read.

Indeed, his prose is superb.

Quote
(Incidentally: where does Schopenhauer reject Wagner? I don't think I've read *that* part. He wouldn't have likely heard more than Rienzi, Flying D-Man, and Tannhaeuser, would he?)



This very informative and well-written biography quotes from a Schopenhauer's letter to Wagner, written after the latter had sent the former the score of one of his works --- can't remember off the top of my head which one, but given the exchange took place around Schopenhauer's death in 1860, it could have been "Das Rheingold", "Die Walkure" or even "Tristan und Isolde". Schopenhauer wrote something to the effect that he thanked Wagner for sending his music but he remained faithful to the old masters, nominating Rossini and Mozart.

Will check the book these days and give you more details.

EDIT: It appears it's time to re-read that excellent biography --- I was wrong: Schopenhauer never replied personally to Wagner, but he did make very dismissive comments about The Ring, and did prefer Rossini and Mozart over it.

See here and here.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

DavidRoss

Quote from: Florestan on February 09, 2011, 12:59:44 AM
As a prominent member of the Frankfurt School, Adorno had an ideological axe to grind --- and to the totalitarian narrow-mindedness which is the inherent mark of any ideology fell victim not only Sibelius and Stravinsky, but also his own prose, as Brian testifies.  His opinion on these composers has the same level of authority as Schopenhauer's rejection of Wagner in the name of Mozart and Rossini: none at all. They are however instructive about how even some of the finest minds can display a considerable and lamentable obtuseness.
QFT  ;D
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

karlhenning

And if that be true of even some of the finest minds . . . .

mjwal

I think, though, despite my own disparaging remarks anent Adorno's polemical obduracy, that his writing cannot be easily dismissed as unreadable - and indeed (in German, at any rate) can offer both pleasure and instruction: I am thinking particularly of Dialektik der Aufklärung, Minima Moralia, the Mahler and Berg monographs and the long essays on Bach and Schoenberg. "Totalitarian" strikes me as a particularly obtuse epithet, applying as it does to state control or coercion; even if the term is understood metaphorically (not a good idea), Adorno doesn't usually  make it easy for his reader to understand his thought whereas totalitarian government makes it perfectly clear what is prohibited or demanded, thus a fortiori the analogy is misplaced. My annoyance at Adorno's wilful crotchets does not permit me to write him off.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Scarpia

I guess I'm lost, looking for the Sibelius thread.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Scarpia on February 09, 2011, 12:20:19 PM
I guess I'm lost, looking for the Sibelius thread.

Lol...yeah really wish this thread would get back on topic. F*** Adorno!

mjwal

I do admire the polished courtesy with which you are wont to broadcast your opinion.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

DavidRoss

Some of Sibelius's little known yet lovely works are included on this disc, which is overdue for another hearing:

[asin]B00006ANKD[/asin]

"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: mjwal on February 09, 2011, 12:28:53 PM
I do admire the polished courtesy with which you are wont to broadcast your opinion.

Never mind the Bolsheviks. 8) I started this tread and I see nothing wrong with how it's evolved lately. Now, if the thread had been lost in a "Revolutionizing The Sugar Substitute Industry" tangent, well, then there would be a problem. 

But no such threat as I see it. So, feel free to carry on...


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Mirror Image

Quote from: DavidRoss on February 09, 2011, 12:57:44 PM
Some of Sibelius's little known yet lovely works are included on this disc, which is overdue for another hearing:

[asin]B00006ANKD[/asin]

That's a great recording. I picked this one up many months ago and have enjoyed it.

DavidRoss

Listened last night to Sibelius's first symphony and was again struck by how radical and original that plaintive clarinet opening seems.  Are there antecedents, or was this extraordinarily daring for a young composer from a backwater duchy of a second-rate European power? 
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Sadko

Hello Sibelians,

The "Bi-weekly Listening and Appreciation" thread gave me the idea to dive a bit deeper into Sibelius, and I would like to share a few short impressions of some interpretation comparisons of the first symphony:

1. Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RTVSO

I remember not liking it much, but I forgot the details. Also I might have been a bit tired while listening.


2. Barbirolli/Hallé Orchestra

Beautiful moments, atmospheric, but not convincing as a whole. Has the most beautiful realisation of what I call for myself the "seagulls floating downwards"-motif (track 1, 7:14). I think emotionally this interpretation for me is most "in tune" with the symphony.


3. Paavo Berglund/Helsinki PhO

Atmospheric, but a bit boneless and unclear to me.


4. Bernstein/NYPh

Strange! A totally different Sibelius, almost lighthearted, sometimes makes me think of a film soundtrack, quick tempi, miking focusing on detail rather than merging the sound into one, sounds nice and is pleasantly clear, but is it right for this symphony? For me the other interpretations above had a "blue", cold colour, "nature", outside. Bernstein's made me think of a warm brown, of (Gustav) Mahler, of "inside", psyche rather than nature. Intersting, but not matching in my opinion, also lacking depth, maybe?


5. Segerstam/Helsinki PhO

Instantly a feeling of "this is all making sense". But no beauty. No landscape painting, but meaningful and somehow feeling "true". Also more feeling "brown" than "blue" to me.


To find the position of the Barbirolli "seagulls" I listend to a bit again, and I liked the beauty and emotional appeal. I'd like to have the stuctured cohesion of Segerstam with some of the appealing skin of Barbirolli :)

There are still two more versions on my list: Colin Davis and Blomstedt, but I needed to write a bit down of what I thought so far.