The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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Lethevich

Quote from: John of Glasgow on August 08, 2011, 10:45:34 AM
Have you hear his Snofrid?  It is in my top 5 favourite Sibelius works.

Seconded - such an ernest little cantata-thingy, and with enough big tunes to save the day.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Renfield

#821
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 10, 2011, 04:26:25 PM
Seconded - such an ernest little cantata-thingy, and with enough big tunes to save the day.

That sounds like most of pre-symphonic Sibelius: an earnest little cantata/tone-poem thing, plus nice tunes. ;D

Sibelius really is one of those cases where one can definitely feel the difference, once he started getting serious about his music as a formal venture, vs. 'nice things that describe Finland'. Not to say the nice things that describe Finland were bad music; however, I can never quite get over the compositional gulf between them and the late symphonies.

Lethevich

Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 04:37:48 PM
That sounds like most of pre-symphonic Sibelius: an earnest little cantata/tone-poem thing, plus nice tunes. ;D

Sibelius really is one of those cases where one can really feel the difference, once he started getting serious about his music as a formal venture, vs. 'nice things that describe Finland'. Not to say the nice things that describe Finland were bad music, however. Still, I can never quite get over the compositional gulf between them and the late symphonies.

Indeedie - I don't have much time for the minor/very early works, and Snöfrid is dangerously thin on material, but really grabs my attention. I like Sibelius' early maturity (Lemminkäinen Suite through Symphony No.3) as much as his later works - I always feel bad about that :P Even a few of the even earlier works like En Saga I find pretty essential, although I am pre-disposed to the tone poem medium.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Renfield

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 10, 2011, 04:45:06 PM
Indeedie - I don't have much time for the minor/very early works, and Snöfrid is dangerously thin on material, but really grabs my attention. I like Sibelius' early maturity (Lemminkäinen Suite through Symphony No.3) as much as his later works - I always feel bad about that :P Even a few of the even earlier works like En Saga I find pretty essential, although I am pre-disposed to the tone poem medium.

I like parts of the Lemminkäinen Suite lots, and Rozhdestvensky (see above) really gave me a new perspective on the power of the 3rd symphony. But the moment I put on the 4th symphony, it's like it all fades away. :D

I suppose Sibelius would be happy.

DavidRoss

Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 04:48:51 PM
I like parts of the Lemminkäinen Suite lots, and Rozhdestvensky (see above) really gave me a new perspective on the power of the 3rd symphony. But the moment I put on the 4th symphony, it's like it all fades away. :D

I suppose Sibelius would be happy.
Does this mean that your enjoyment of Sibelius fades away with the 4th?  Or that the 4th makes earlier Sibelius pale in comparison for you?
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Renfield

Quote from: DavidRoss on August 10, 2011, 05:16:05 PM
Does this mean that your enjoyment of Sibelius fades away with the 4th?  Or that the 4th makes earlier Sibelius pale in comparison for you?

The latter. It's like going from Aristotle's logic to Frege.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 04:20:32 PM
I can't remember the last time I was so floored over an entire cycle of someone's symphonies. The 1st is good, but not mind-blowing; and then you get to the second... And then that third. :o And then... Even the 6th!

It's as awe-inspiring as Svetlanov's Mahler, only more normal.

Yay, someone on my wavelength...Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius was my single best purchase of 2010. We had a thread on it last year:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16723.msg424480.html#msg424480
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Brian

What are the timings for Rozh's Second? I really want to hear someone do a mad charge through that piece and strip it of its cushy romantic flab.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Brian on August 11, 2011, 02:15:52 AM
What are the timings for Rozh's Second?

9:36, 15:00, 5:52, 14:30
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Brian

Quote from: Velimir on August 11, 2011, 08:09:52 AM
9:36, 15:00, 5:52, 14:30

Darn. I'm hoping to hear something closer to 7:30, 12:30, 6:00, 13:00. I think the music could take it if only someone would try. The outer movements would sound a lot like the Third Symphony.

eyeresist

Just searched Amazon MP3s for shortest Symphony 2 first movements:

8.25 Kajanus
8.51 Beecham
8.52 Berglund/Helsinki
8.56 Neeme Jarvi
8.58 Valek
9.10 Jansons

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Brian on August 11, 2011, 01:46:05 PM
Darn. I'm hoping to hear something closer to 7:30, 12:30, 6:00, 13:00. I think the music could take it if only someone would try. The outer movements would sound a lot like the Third Symphony.

Why would you want it to sound like that? If Sibelius ever wrote a big-boned Late Romantic symphony, it was the 2nd.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

eyeresist


I wonder if Brian is looking to the precedent of Collins's 1st, which is very invigorating and I believe the fastest on record.

Renfield

Quote from: Velimir on August 11, 2011, 01:58:29 AM
Yay, someone on my wavelength...Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius was my single best purchase of 2010. We had a thread on it last year:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16723.msg424480.html#msg424480

:D

Amusingly, up until fairly recently I thought Rozhdestvensky was dead. It's a shame he doesn't seem to record much now.

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Renfield on August 13, 2011, 10:40:25 PM
Amusingly, up until fairly recently I thought Rozhdestvensky was dead. It's a shame he doesn't seem to record much now.

He's alive and well and still giving concerts, though not as frequently as I would like him to.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

eyeresist

The guy turned 80 this year - give him a break!

Brahmsian

Quote from: Renfield on August 13, 2011, 10:40:25 PM
I thought Rozhdestvensky was dead.

So did I.   :o   Glad to hear he isn't!    :)

Renfield

Quote from: eyeresist on August 14, 2011, 03:38:22 AM
The guy turned 80 this year - give him a break!

When I found out he was still alive, I commented something along the lines of "he must be a lich by now!"

However, he is indeed 'only' 80. And yes, he probably deserves a break.

Elgarian

Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 04:20:32 PM
Also, cross-posting from the Melodiya thread, regarding something I picked up this year: "Speaking of which, should you find the Rozhdestvensky Sibelius cycle of offer, or even at a reasonable price, and you like Sibelius at all, it's one of those unexpected 24-carat diamonds of the Melodiya catalogue; or even the Sibelius catalogue.

Short of Vänskä's uber-'authentic' cycle, I can't think of any (complete) cycle I would have before Rozhdestvensky's, much to my surprise when I acquired it. No allowances for being 'Russian-style': it's just great Sibelius, including the best 3rd I know!"

I can't remember the last time I was so floored over an entire cycle of someone's symphonies.

I could say similar things myself. I thought I'd reached Sibelius nirvana when I bought the Segerstam set and at last thought I'd found the performance of the first symphony I'd been seeking for decades. The telling thing is, though, in a way it merely reinforced my existing Sibelius conditioning. I didn't actually make any progress to somewhere new.

But when I got the Rozhdestvensky box, mysterious things began to happen. At first I thought it was excitingly different - but probably offering no more than a quirky second string to my mainly Segerstamian bow. But then suddenly, the 4th and the 6th (which I'd never managed to get into, in decades of listening - suddenly I say, I was listening to these with fascination; at times significantly moved; hearing aspects of them that I'd never heard before. I listened to the 4th on three successive days, keen to get at the heart of it: responding to it now as chiefly tragic, where once I'd found it merely dull and bleak. That would have been unthinkable without this Rozhdestvensky performance to lure me on.

I've been trying to understand what the big difference is - what caused the breakthrough. It must have something to do with the Russian-ness of it perhaps. But there's a kind of beautiful but dangerous raw crispness to the soundscape of it. The music sounds as if it were born from splintered ice. I think Ruskin's valuable term, 'savageness' (which describes the kind of imperfection one gets when art is operating at its limits, perhaps even hovering close to failure) might be helpful here. When I listen to my revered Segerstam after Rozhdestvensky, he sounds imprecise, blowsy, opulent, rounded off by comparison.

I can't think of a better bit of evidence for why it's worth seeking out multiple recordings of works that have never quite kicked in for us. Immerseel did it for me with Beethoven's symphonies. Rozhdestvensky's now done it for me with Sibelius 4 and 6. Listening to them now is an entirely different experience compared to the frustratingly disappointing listenings that have punctuated most of my adult life.

Brian'll be interested in this - I bet he's got a set by now - have you Brian?

Opus106

I didn't notice your return proper, Alan, apart from a 'sighting' reported by Sara. It's good to have you back. :)
Regards,
Navneeth