The Snowshoed Sibelius

[eyeresist]

Middle of the Road.

Idea reaches back at least to the passage in the Acopalypse which is referenced at the beginning of Dostoyevsky's The Devils: You are neither hot nor cold, but because you are lukewarm, I shall spit you out

That is for me one of the most annoying axioms to come from the New Testament, especially as it is often attributed to Jesus (Revelation actually written by some guy called John of Patmos). It is the creed of an extremist, that fanaticism of any kind is morally superior to moderation. How can this be correlated with Jesus's famous promise to the meek? My own opinion and experience is that the moderate position is usually the best.

[/massively off topic]

From a quick Google, it seems Segerstam's later Helsinki cycle is much preferred, but I can't find any direct comparison.

[Elgarian]

How can this be correlated with Jesus's famous promise to the meek?

YEAH! It's high time the MEEK got something!! [Shaking fist].

(I seem to have woken up in Pythonesque mode this morning.)

But seriously though - if I ask myself whether I want my Sibelius to be Middle-of-the-Road, I have to reply that I really don't.
Ice and snow? Yeah, loads!
Flurries of freezing wind? Bring it on!
If I think of Segerstam and Rozhdestvensky (my current top choices), they're each of them extreme, in their way. But I think of them as wholehearted and committed (that is, positive attributes), rather than fanatical (with its negative associations).

[eyeresist]

But seriously though - if I ask myself whether I want my Sibelius to be Middle-of-the-Road, I have to reply that I really don't.

Well, I didn't mean MOR in the sense of "comfortably inoffensive". But Berglund is not overly quick and cool on one hand, or warm and wallowing on the other, which strikes me as a good place to start without developing possibly erroneous preconceptions.

[Brian]

David Hurwitz's comparisons between Segerstam/Denmark and Segerstam/Helsinki:

"Leif Segerstam recorded a strangely mannered, soft-edged Sibelius cycle for Chandos a few years ago with the Danish National Radio Symphony Orchestra, but his superb Sibelius recordings with the Helsinki Philharmonic (most notably a remarkable Four Legends) held out the promise that he could do better--and there's no question that he certainly has."

"Leif Segerstam and the Helsinki Philharmonic, both here and in the Fourth Symphony, achieve that mysterious alchemy that produces great Sibelius: a perfect equilibrium between incidental detail and structural cogency. ... Segerstam has picked up his pace a bit, all to the good, in comparison with his soft-focus previous Danish Radio recording for Chandos; ...he once again manages to plumb the depths of the music's colors and textures without any sacrifice in momentum."

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I've noticed that nobody seems to prefer Segerstam's Danish cycle. I find it hard to believe it's really that bad.

I'm curious now about the Blomstedt. I've read raves, and also some cool reviews. It is supposed to be austere and modernistic, which I might like.

[Elgarian]

Well, I didn't mean MOR in the sense of "comfortably inoffensive". But Berglund is not overly quick and cool on one hand, or warm and wallowing on the other, which strikes me as a good place to start without developing possibly erroneous preconceptions.

Yes I know what you mean. I wasn't so much disagreeing with you, as picking up the ball you'd dropped and running off with it in my own direction. I could imagine a first-time Sibelius listener responding badly to something as upfront and 'taking-no-prisoners' as Rozhdestvensky.

[karlhenning]

. . . How can this be correlated with Jesus's famous promise to the meek?

I suppose that one might not consider the meek lukewarm, actually.  Depends on how one characterizes the axis.

Much of your rant reasonably well taken, BTW. Though, mind you, it was a rant.

[Mirror Image]

Rubbish! There's something wrongheaded about your approach to recordings you don't care for.  I've owned the Maazel/Vienna set more than a decade, and (the composer talking) I know the music tolerably well;  there's hardly anything "wrongheaded" at any point in the seven symphonies.

Strike that nonsensical objection.

People can't like the same things and it's impossible really because we're all so different. If you don't agree with my opinion, then that's fine, you don't have to, but don't call my opinion rubbish when it's nothing more than a different view than your own. I have spent a lot of time with Sibelius's music, absorbing it, and studying about his life just as much as anyone on this thread has probably done. I love his music, but I don't like Maazel's Sibelius recordings. That's okay isn't it? You and I can like different things can't we? Honestly, I'm sure there's a lot of recordings you like that I dislike and vice versa.

[Mirror Image]

On another note, I bought my 18th Sibelius symphony cycle a few days ago and I'm curious has anybody heard the Sakari Oramo set on Erato? The reviews seem to be quite mixed, but I was wondering if people, who have heard his Sibelius recordings, could tell me their own views of them?

[Brahmsian]

People can't like the same things and it's impossible really because we're all so different. If you don't agree with my opinion, then that's fine, you don't have to, but don't call my opinion rubbish when it's nothing more than a different view than your own. I have spent a lot of time with Sibelius's music, absorbing it, and studying about his life just as much as anyone on this thread has probably done. I love his music, but I don't like Maazel's Sibelius recordings. That's okay isn't it? You and I can like different things can't we? Honestly, I'm sure there's a lot of recordings you like that I dislike and vice versa.

I have to say, John, that this is one of the greatest posts you have made, and I 100% agree with it.

This is difficult for me to express, as I admire both Karl and your posts, John.  And I admire and appreciate both your opinions, knowledge and feedback on music.

[Papy Oli]

thank you all for the recommendations on the last 2 pages, i'll sample them and see how it goes   

[Brian]

I love his music, but I don't like Maazel's Sibelius recordings. That's okay isn't it? You and I can like different things can't we?

But "I don't like Maazel's Sibelius" is a very different proposition from "Maazel's Sibelius is wrong-headed." We can respect and even want to understand the former, but the latter it's open season for arguing against.

[vandermolen]

I'm aware that I've come in on the end of this, but just to say I do like Segerstam's Danish RSO version of 'Tapiola' on Chandos - this is my favourite work by Sibelius.  His Helsinki version on Ondine maybe my all time favourite version.  I just have a new Brilliant set of 'Complete Symphonic Poems' with the Moscow PO conducted by Vassily Sinaisky, with a marvellously expansive and deeply felt Tapiola.  I think that the most underrated sibelian was Sir Alexander Gibson.

[Elgarian]

But "I don't like Maazel's Sibelius" is a very different proposition from "Maazel's Sibelius is wrong-headed." We can respect and even want to understand the former, but the latter it's open season for arguing against.

Brian (praise be to he) speaks the truth. Much of the bad temper that develops on internet forums is unnecessary, and arises from person B responding not to what person A actually meant, but to what he thinks person A meant (either through misreading, or through A's imperfect expression of his thoughts). Here we have a classic example. Mirror Image's most recent post (#948) is a model of reason and clarity, which few would disagree with and most would defend, including Karl!

Now, Ladies and (mostly) Gentlemen. I hope it won't be long now before my ordered Maazel set arrives, and THEN we will know THE TRUTH ABOUT IT I shall find out whether I like it.

[Elgarian]

Meanwhile .....

I listened to Barbirolli's 4th yesterday (remember, I'm on a 4th symphony odyssey at present) and discovered how easy it is to confuse and bewilder myself. I was surprised to find that I got very involved with the first movement. I could hear all the detailed articulations that I'd so valued in Rozhdestvensky's account, admittedly with a good deal less ice and snow, and yet still this warmer kind of wildness seemed more than acceptable. It didn't last, unfortunately, and I found my attention drifting frequently before the symphony reached its end. But my goodness, I continue to be amazed by the very substantial differences to be perceived among these various recordings. With regard to the 4th, I shall soon be in the position of the art lover who knows a lot about art but doesn't know what he likes.

The 1st Symphony (my-best-and-longest-loved) was on the same CD, so I played that immediately afterwards, but it confirmed me in my existing view that Barbirolli's Sibelius, worthy though it is (and I'm sure the favourite of many and for good reason) isn't really what I'm after. Sometimes - this may sound foolish, but I'll say it - I think he makes parts of his Sibelius sound just a bit like Elgar or Vaughan Williams; that is, he does inject a kind of 'Northerness' into the feeling of the music (something I responded to very strongly when I was but a lad), but it's not quite an Arctic Northernness: the bleakness of Pennine moorland rather than Finnish snowfields.

But sometimes I just talk nonsense, don't I?

[Mirror Image]

I have to say, John, that this is one of the greatest posts you have made, and I 100% agree with it.

This is difficult for me to express, as I admire both Karl and your posts, John.  And I admire and appreciate both your opinions, knowledge and feedback on music.

Thanks Ray, but I wasn't exactly stricken with joy when I wrote that response to Karl and more than anything I don't like getting into unnecessary arguments with other forum members, but I suppose that I was asking for it. So I understand Karl's position and he had every right to call me out on my opinion. The only thing I didn't agree with was him calling my opinion rubbish.

[Mirror Image]

I just have a new Brilliant set of 'Complete Symphonic Poems' with the Moscow PO conducted by Vassily Sinaisky, with a marvellously expansive and deeply felt Tapiola..

I was wondering about this 3-CD set, Jeffrey. It's quite an inexpensive set. How is the rest of the set?

This, for those interested, is the set Jeffrey is taking about:

[asin]B004J80CZ2[/asin]

[DavidRoss]

it won't be long now before my ordered Maazel set arrives, and THEN we will know THE TRUTH ABOUT IT I shall find out whether I like it.

[Brian]

Loved that post too.

[eyeresist]

The 1st Symphony (my-best-and-longest-loved) was on the same CD, so I played that immediately afterwards, but it confirmed me in my existing view that Barbirolli's Sibelius, worthy though it is (and I'm sure the favourite of many and for good reason) isn't really what I'm after. Sometimes - this may sound foolish, but I'll say it - I think he makes parts of his Sibelius sound just a bit like Elgar or Vaughan Williams; that is, he does inject a kind of 'Northerness' into the feeling of the music (something I responded to very strongly when I was but a lad), but it's not quite an Arctic Northernness: the bleakness of Pennine moorland rather than Finnish snowfields.

My recollection of Barbirolli in the 1st (and it only a recollection, as I don't have the set to hand), is that the finale was strikingly Italianate! By which I mean operatic, by which I mean very 'songful'.