The Snowshoed Sibelius

[Karl Henning]

So am I the only Sibelian who thinks both Davis and Bernstein are terrific? 

Sarge

Hah!

I should revisit the Davis/BSO Sixth. I certainly think highly of both Blomstedt and Lenny.

Now at last I've seen to this.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

   I see the Rozhdestvensky's cycle in amazon. Can someone give me an advice?

I love that set. It wouldn't be my first or only cycle, but it is fascinating for Rozh's super-dramatic approach and the sound of the orchestra. Russian orchestras don't really sound like that anymore. The set divides people: some love it, some hate it.

Here's an earlier thread on it:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16723.msg424480.html#msg424480

[Elgarian]

I see the Rozhdestvensky's cycle in amazon. Can someone give me an advice?

I bought it as an experiment a while ago when I was on a big Sibelius binge, and loved it. It's idiosyncratically Russian, but it immediately made an impact on me; and at the end of my binge I decided that top of my pile of Sibelius was Segerstam's cycle, and if I only had that, plus  the Rozhdestvensky as a stark contrast, I probably had nailed all the Sibelius symphonies I needed.

But then funny things happened. More and more I found myself I reaching for Rozhdestvensky when I wanted a Sibelius symphony, and Segerstam (wonderful though he is) started to seem a bit too ... lush, I think is the word I'm after. And here today, hand on heart, I think I'd put Rozhdestvensky at the top of my pile. This is all very personal of course, and it all depends on what you want from your Sibelius (I want ice, and crisp white snow, and wind whirling through firs, and vast blue frozen skies); but I'd say that even if it turned out not to be a favourite cycle for you, it's unlikely that you'd ever regret the purchase - so interesting would be the journey of discovery.

[trung224]

 Thank you for all recommend, Velimir, Elgarian. My taste in music after Mozart is always something intense, hot-blood, profound no matter its interventionist or not (that why I love Bernstein's, Tennstedt's, Karajan's, Solti's, Klemperer's Mahler but don't really like Tilson Thomas though his approaching in Mahler is subjective and interventionist). So possibly I love Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius.

[Scarpia]

Thank you for all recommend, Velimir, Elgarian. My taste in music after Mozart is always something intense, hot-blood, profound no matter its interventionist or not (that why I love Bernstein's, Tennstedt's, Karajan's, Solti's, Klemperer's Mahler but don't really like Tilson Thomas though his approaching in Mahler is subjective and interventionist). So possibly I love Rozhdestvensky's Sibelius.

You switched from Mozart to Mahler there.  Are they interchangeable?

[trung224]

You switched from Mozart to Mahler there.  Are they interchangeable?

I want to clarify my taste about music from Beethoven to Mahler. Mahler is only an example 

[Scarpia]

 
   I want to clarify my taste about music from Beethoven to Mahler. Mahler is only an example 

Ooops, I see.  But Mozart should not be intense?

[trung224]

 Mozart can be intense, yes but I think only in the last six symphonies, and Mozart wrote 41 symphonies  So I can not make a statement based on minority  . Though I really love Fricsay's, Szell's and Klemperer's Mozart

[Daverz]

Mozart can be intense, yes but I think only in the last six symphonies, and Mozart wrote 41 symphonies  So I can not make a statement based on minority  . Though I really love Fricsay's, Szell's and Klemperer's Mozart

Don't forget the Sturm und Drang No. 25.

[Scarpia]

Mozart can be intense, yes but I think only in the last six symphonies, and Mozart wrote 41 symphonies  So I can not make a statement based on minority  . Though I really love Fricsay's, Szell's and Klemperer's Mozart

Ever listened to Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw?

[trung224]

 No, I have only heard Harnoncourt's effort with COE, which can not be describe as intense. Thanks for mention, Scarpia, I'm sure I consider it

[Karl Henning]

Okay, I'll say it: I don't think intensity has much of anything to do with Mozart's music, even the late works.

Thread duty:  It's an age since I've listened to it, but the Sibelius Sixth was indeed one of HvK's successes, I should think.

[mahler10th]

Okay, I'll say it: I don't think intensity has much of anything to do with Mozart's music, even the late works.

Thread duty:  It's an age since I've listened to it, but the Sibelius Sixth was indeed one of HvK's successes, I should think.

Unfortunately I agree with this.  I have never heard any 'intensity' from Mozarts orchestral works at all, though Don Giovanni and some others can be said to hold some intensity.  Intense in a great word, but certainly not for Mozart.  Maybe things like Berlioz's famous symphony, much of Mahlers works, Sibelius 7th, Bruckner 9th, this kind of thing...that is intensity for me.
My favourite composer, Kurt Atterberg, also lacks 'intensity', but is such a romp he can be well forgiven.

[Karl Henning]

Mind you, of course I do not consider this any "failing" on Mozart's part. It's just the wrong word; by and large, that's not what his work is about.

Back to Sibelius... color me slow, but I didn't realize at first that Sarge's chart is in ascending order of duration of the first movement ... and therefore that Colin Davis conducts the briefest, from this sampling.

[Sergeant Rock]

Back to Sibelius... color me slow, but I didn't realize at first that Sarge's chart is in ascending order of duration of the first movement ... and therefore that Colin Davis conducts the briefest, from this sampling.

He's also the second briefest overall (only Maazel/Vienna takes less time and he accomplishes that primarily with incredibly fast inner movements). The Sixth was my Sibelius problem child, a symphony I simply didn't get for many years. Not until I heard Davis. His tempos make the conclusion of each movement sound surprising and quite abrupt but strangely enigmatic also. It also gives Sibelius a Mozartian lightness (and Davis is a fine conductor of Mozart). That appealed to me...appeals to me. It's still my favorite Sixth although I enjoy slower versions now too.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

He's also the second briefest overall (only Maazel/Vienna takes less time and he accomplishes that primarily with incredibly fast inner movements). The Sixth was my Sibelius problem child, a symphony I simply didn't get for many years. Not until I heard Davis. His tempos make the conclusion of each movement sound surprising and quite abrupt but strangely enigmatic also. It also gives Sibelius a Mozartian lightness (and Davis is a fine conductor of Mozart). That appealed to me...appeals to me. It's still my favorite Sixth although I enjoy slower versions now too.

Sarge

Yes!  I think of the Sixth as having a kammermusiklich lightness (though that is another reason why I am curious to revisit HvK here, more on which presently).  And as to the enigmatical conclusions of the movements . . . from early on, I think I must have intuitively taken the symphony as trending towards the symphony-in-one-movement, sinfonia quasi una fantasia conception of the Seventh.  I had already fallen for the piece, and listened to it, transfixed, a dozen times, before I concerned myself with Where does the second movement begin? e.g.

Which brings me to [re-]acknowledgement that it was in the HvK recording (the same disc with the Fourth which left me so entirely unconvinced of that great work) that the Sixth initially enchanted me.  From a number of angles (revisitation of that account of the Fourth, e.g.) I've grown curious to listen afresh to the Herbster here.  Cheap though it is, I've not reeled in the Trio . . . insufficiently interested in a set filled out by Okko Kamu (not to speak him at all ill). I liked better the idea of the Originals two-fer, including Tapiola, I discovered, and so at last I've pulled the trigger on that 'un.

[Scarpia]

Okay, I'll say it: I don't think intensity has much of anything to do with Mozart's music, even the late works.

Mind you, of course I do not consider this any "failing" on Mozart's part. It's just the wrong word; by and large, that's not what his work is about.

Aside from my relief that you deem Mozart of some value, despite the lack of intensity, I find this puzzling.  Is there any music of the period more 'intense' than the close of Don Giovanni, where the Don is dragged to the horrors of hell?  The two minor-key piano concerti also contain passages of harrowing intensity, to my ears.  The fuge on Kyrie eleison from the Requiem is another place where I hear an intensity in Mozart's transformation of the 'academic' style of Bach.  And aside from these broad examples, what I find thrilling about Mozart is that an intense moment can spring up in the most unexpected place.  For instance, the exposition of the symphony No 41, 1st movement, ends with a charming tune that suddenly become the subject of an intense fugato as the development section begins. 

Aside from these considerations, my remark about intensity mainly dealt with performance practice.  Harnoncourt's Mozart style changed in later recordings, but in the Concertgebouw recordings he cultivated a more aggressive style.  They are the opposite of the stereotypical polite Mozart style (think Neville Marriner).  Strings play with bite.  Brass and horns, instead of providing gently accompaniment with rounded tones, bark agressively.  Large modern timpani played gently with soft mallets are replaced by the twack of smaller drums played with hard mallets.  Hearing these recordings completely changed my view of Mozart.  Recent recordings by Minkowski and Rene Jacobs have brought a similar energy to performance of Mozart's late symphonies, but I do not think they exceed what Harnoncourt accomplished in those Concertgebouw recordings from the 80's. 

[vandermolen]

New release.

Great old performances of Pohjola's Daughter and Tapiola.
[asin]B00925TBR2[/asin]

[Brahmsian]

My favourite Sibelius symphony keeps changing!!   

Currently, it's now the 6th (for the 1st time).

[Karl Henning]

My favourite Sibelius symphony keeps changing!!   

Currently, it's now the 6th (for the 1st time).

Cool, Ray!