The Snowshoed Sibelius

[Karl Henning]

Calling Sibelius a conman was ludicrous.  Not strictly hateful, because it cannot be taken seriously.

[Karl Henning]

I simply don't find Sibelius' symphonies as awesome as many claim them to be.

If it were as simple as that, denigrating him as a conman would not have entered the picture.

[71 dB]

. . . an absurd simplification.  Be fair:  you would be impatient with anyone characterizing Elgar's symphonies -- only two of them, compared to Sibelius' seven -- by a single, trending-negative qualifier.  "Too pompous," I think is a frequent canard . . . .

Elgar's symphonies are longer than those of Sibelius and if we continue this meaningless comparison, we could ask where are Sibelius' oratorios?

I don't care if people find Elgar's rich orchestration and sophisticated complexity "pompous" because that's exactly what I want to hear.

[Karl Henning]

Elgar's symphonies are longer than those of Sibelius and if we continue this meaningless comparison, we could ask where are Sibelius' oratorios?

I don't care if people find Elgar's rich orchestration and sophisticated complexity "pompous" because that's exactly what I want to hear.

Thank you for missing the point entirely.

[71 dB]

If it were as simple as that, denigrating him as a conman would not have entered the picture.

I don't actually call him a conman, but sometimes I do feel like listening to one when listening to Sibelius.

[71 dB]

Thank you for missing the point entirely.

You are welcome Karl. 

[Madiel]

I don't actually call him a conman, but sometimes I do feel like listening to one when listening to Sibelius.

A distinction without a difference, surely.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I don't actually call him a conman....

I even feel Sibelius was a cunning conman.

[71 dB]

To take another example, the first movement of the 2nd symphony impresses me because of the way the main theme sounds like an introduction. That's not an easy trick at all, to make you believe that there's an introduction, and then you start thinking "when is the main material going to arrive?" and then eventually at some point your brain switches and realises there was no introduction at all, and that he started with a fragmented version of the theme before integrating it (the opposite of what most composers had done, although Beethoven in the Eroica finale did something similar). It's an exercise in presenting the counterpoint lines separately first!

"separated counterpoint" is meaningless to me because what happens "now" is relevant to me in music. What happened 20 seconds ago is distant history, mostly forgotten. This may explain Why I don't care for some composers (those who use "temporarily separated structures" extensively). Also, harmony and rhythm are more important for me than melody because I am a mathematical person rather than linguistic.

[71 dB]

A distinction without a difference, surely.

You can be affraid of harmless things (irrational fears are common). You don't call thise things dangerous, but you fear them nevertheless.
Calling Sibelius a conman would be ridiculous, yet I do have these (irrational) feelings...

[71 dB]

I do enjoy quite a lot this disc, both Grieg and Sibelius.:

[asin]B0000274PC[/asin]

No conmen here... 

[Ken B]

Possibly, but not recently.
I wouldn't say I don't care for his music. I'm just wondering why I can't be critical. I simply don't find Sibelius' symphonies as awesome as many claim them to be.
Wow, I really have filled this thread with my posts, haven't I? I posted here because I recently had a positive Sibelius experience with the last movement of the 5th Symphony. Maybe I did care for some of the notes written by Sibelius?
Arguably I have tons of better things to do, but I suppose this applies to us all. I'm sure we all "waste" most of the time we spend on GMG. That's life. Other people waste their time on even dumber ways. At least we are talking about Sibelius ( ="high culture" ).
I see your point, but did I express that much hate? Really?

I for think you have a perfect right to criticize and John is silly to object.

Not as silly as listening to an Elgar symphony of course, but silly nonetheless. 

[Brian]

I for think you have a perfect right to criticize and John is silly to object.

Yeah, I think everyone is being very rude to 71 dB instead of taking the other route and having an interesting discussion about Sibelian counterpoint and thematic development. Maybe that discussion is harder.

[Ken B]

. Also, harmony and rhythm are more important for me than melody because I am a mathematical person rather than linguistic.

I think I can fairly be called a mathematical person, and those things are not true of me. So l don't agree with your theory. Also, the stereotype is mathematical types like counterpoint (true of me) but that can involve what was heard more than 20 seconds ago.

[Mirror Image]

I even feel Sibelius was a cunning conman.

I could respond to all of your responses to my own posts, but after reading the quote above (that I somehow missed), what would be the point? I'll just leave you to be believe what you want to believe. Good luck to you.

Show is over folks. Nothing more to see here.

[Mirror Image]

I for think you have a perfect right to criticize and John is silly to object.

Not as silly as listening to an Elgar symphony of course, but silly nonetheless. 

Ken, your whole approach of "it's okay to say what you want to about a composer at any given time" is growing rather tiresome. We all understand you don't like this composer's music or Debussy's La Mer. There's no need to beat a dead horse. The crazy thing is you somehow think it's funny what you're saying about these composer's whose music you don't like, but, for me, I'm still waiting on the punchline.

[Mirror Image]

Getting back to the Sibelius' music, has anyone heard any of Simon Rattle's new Berliner cycle yet? How about Kamu's on BIS?

[Ken B]

Ken, your whole approach of "it's okay to say what you want to about a composer at any given time" is growing rather tiresome. We all understand you don't like this composer's music or Debussy's La Mer. There's no need to beat a dead horse. The crazy thing is you somehow think it's funny what you're saying about these composer's whose music you don't like, but, for me, I'm still waiting on the punchline.

More tedious than "great work of course"? We're here to express opinions John. Mine is that you have been rude.

[Mirror Image]

More tedious than "great work of course"? We're here to express opinions John. Mine is that you have been rude.

Sure, we can express opinions, but whenever you continuously jab and poke fun at music I enjoy for no apparent reason other than to amuse yourself, then it becomes something more than merely 'expressing an opinion.' Anyway, you believe I've been rude? How so? I think you're unnecessarily rude every time you cut down a composer I enjoy for the umpteenth time, but did I ever tell you to "put a sock in it"? No, I held my tongue with hopes that you would somehow realize that you're only alienating yourself from other people here who would actually like to have a decent conversation with you.

[vandermolen]

I've now got round to 'Andante Festivo' in my new boxed set of historic recordings, which I am very happy with, the only work conducted on record by Sibelius himself. The work is usually dismissed as insignificant but I liked it very much and it was even more touching knowing that it was the great man himself conducting it.