Birgit Nilsson with Verdi & Puccini

wagnernn · September 16, 2007, 04:55:22 AM

Do you think Nilsson's voice is suite with Italian Operas?

Tsaraslondon · September 16, 2007, 05:18:21 AM

In a word no. With the possible exception of Turandot (and even here I tend to prefer sopranos such as Sutherland, Caballe (live from San Francisco) and Callas in the role), her voice and style don't translate themselves well to Italian opera. For me there is too much Nordic steel in the voice, and not enough Italianate warmth and legato. She did sing quite a few Verdi and Puccini roles, and, in addition to Turandot, recorded Minnie in la Fanciulla del West, Tosca, Aida, Lady Macbeth and Amelia in Un Ballo in Maschera, none of which are amongst the top ranking recordings of those operas.

Personally, though hers is not a voice I have ever warmed to, I find her at her best in Wagner and Richard Strauss, her Elektra being particularly fine.

Que · September 16, 2007, 05:59:53 AM

Quote from: wagnernn on September 16, 2007, 04:55:22 AM
Do you think Nilsson's voice is suite with Italian Operas?

Ah! Welcome back!

I fully agree with Tsaraslondon.

Q

knight66 · September 16, 2007, 06:04:07 AM

Yep, not much to add there. I have the Aida and Tosca. She also recorded Mozart and though she gets round the notes, the sound is just not what I am looking for in Italian music.

Mike

Lilas Pastia · September 16, 2007, 06:37:47 AM

Nilsson was particularly adept at filling vast arches of sound with bright, steely tones. She could also fine down her huge voice to excellent effect, but one is always aware of a "knob twiddling" effect when she did so. IOW her pianissimo singing is a marvel of control, not expression. I find her perfect as Turandot and Minnie, and she is an excellent Aida. Her Tosca is magnificently sung but, man: she won't have anybody believe that these are dolci mani mansuete e pure...

wagnernn · September 16, 2007, 04:11:30 PM

thank you very much about your replies.

just a question
what made Nilsson's Turandot become too famous ?(her voice , Corelli and Vishnevskaya,or ...)

Lilas Pastia · September 16, 2007, 06:03:47 PM

There's a few YouTube videos. Hearing (and seeing) is believing

Advance it about 3 1/2 minutes in for the music to begin.

wagnernn · September 16, 2007, 06:44:12 PM

I listen to Verdi 's "Un ballo in maschera" with Nilsson everyday and the complete Ring (with Nilsson,of course!) every 2 days (

) to compare.The duet in Act II and some arias of Amelia from "Un ballo..." are great enough to be compared with "Hojotoho" and "Mild und leise wie er lachen" which became the legendary melodies with Nilsson!!!.
What so you think about the record "Un ballo in maschera " with Solti,Bergonzi in 1962?It changed my opinion
about an Verdi-Nilsson

knight66 · September 16, 2007, 10:14:38 PM

That is one recording I don't know. However it is not about whether she can get round the notes, she can, it is about the sound and her personal approach. Her voice is too metallic to go with the Italian roles. She is providing a very direct sound, it is of a strength to pin you into your seat. While there are some parts of the roles that suit this voice production, she does not achieve the warmth or tone colour we look for in say Aida or Tosca. In this latter, she manages some things easily and sounds wonderful, but it does sound as though someone to big for the opera turned up and the sound is too much in many passages, not too loud, too forceful.

I have the Turandot and it is my favourite recording.

Mike

wagnernn · September 17, 2007, 04:25:40 AM

How about Strauss 's "Arabella",did Nilsson record this one?
I don't think that "Arabella" is a pure Wagnerian opera like Salome and Elektra .So,in my opinion ,her voice isn't suited with this opera (I just love the record of "Arabella" with Kiri Te Kanawa )
I wish there had been a combination of Puccini (or Verdi) and Wager (or Strauss) (such as Isolde and Turandot,Brunhilde and Mìmì,Arabella with Viloletta)...

Tsaraslondon · September 17, 2007, 07:38:32 AM

Quote from: wagnernn on September 17, 2007, 04:25:40 AM
How about Strauss 's "Arabella",did Nilsson record this one?
I don't think that "Arabella" is a pure Wagnerian opera like Salome and Elektra .So,in my opinion ,her voice isn't suited with this opera (I just love the record of "Arabella" with Kiri Te Kanawa )
I wish there had been a combination of Puccini (or Verdi) and Wager (or Strauss) (such as Isolde and Turandot,Brunhilde and Mìmì,Arabella with Viloletta)...

Not quite sure what you mean by a combination of such obviously different composers, but there can be few singers who could encompass both Isolde and Mimi. Callas sang both roles, though at different times in her career and Mimi only on record. Linda Esther Gray is another who sang both roles. I heard her do Mimi very early in her career, but this was before the voice had settled and before she moved on to the dramatic roles she would later sing.
I certainly can't imagine Nilsson in the role of Violetta. Quite aside from the coloratura technique required for Sempre libera, she lacks the requisite vulnerability for the role. Nor do I think she'd be right for Arabella, a role far more suited to the lyric, creamy voices of Della Casa, Te Kanawa, Schwarzkopf and Fleming. I always think it a great shame Schwarzkopf only recorded excerpts from the role. It suits her down to the ground. Varady is also very impressive in her recording with Sawallisch conducting. I may be treading on a few toes here, but, to be absolutely honest, I don't much like Nilsson's Salome either. At no point in the opera does she sound like the teenage girl of Strauss's imaginings. Welitsch is my yard stick here, though Behrens comes very close on Karajan's recording, and Stratas is totally convincing in the film version, conducted by Bohm. Nilsson's best Strauss role was undoubtedly Elektra, for which her power and accuracy on high were eminently suited.

wagnernn · September 19, 2007, 05:40:41 AM

I've never listened to the complete Tosca with Nilsson,but I like the aria 'Vissi d'arte,Vissi d'amoure.." with her great voice!!!!! So, what are the differences of Callas and Nilsson in this role?

Lilas Pastia · September 19, 2007, 07:38:49 AM

Consistency. Callas could be in great or bad voice, often within the same performance. Your reaction to this vocal inconsistency usually dictates your appreciation of her work. Whereas Nilsson's Tosca and Vissi d'arte never wavered one iota (both vocally and dramatically).

Tsaraslondon · September 19, 2007, 08:20:51 AM

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 19, 2007, 07:38:49 AM
Whereas Nilsson's Tosca and Vissi d'arte never wavered one iota (both vocally and dramatically).

And that's the problem. She doesn't for one second sound like a vulnerable woman, completely at the end of her tether, and backed into a corner by the despicable Scarpia. And let's not forget, that as pure singing, Callas's contribution to the famous De Sabata recording is well nigh faultless as well. Where other sopranos before Callas had given us a haughty Tosca, Callas makes us realise that her jealousy stems from her vulnerability. The miracle of this 1953 Tosca is that this psychological complexity comes from the score and Callas's meticulous observance of all its markings.

Lilas Pastia · September 19, 2007, 03:31:06 PM

I agree, but vocally it was all downhill from there. Her later Toscas were more or less approximations and memories of what could have been or once was.

Tosca is a very difficult role. It demands a voice in full bloom (it's one of the most 'womanly' roles in the repertoire), but most sopranos that fit that criteria don't have the emotional ability to carry the role's tragedy with purely vocal means.

Tsaraslondon · September 20, 2007, 12:42:29 AM

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 19, 2007, 03:31:06 PM
I agree, but vocally it was all downhill from there. Her later Toscas were more or less approximations and memories of what could have been or once was.

Tosca is a very difficult role. It demands a voice in full bloom (it's one of the most 'womanly' roles in the repertoire), but most sopranos that fit that criteria don't have the emotional ability to carry the role's tragedy with purely vocal means.

Well, not quite, she had quite a few years left in her yet. And, compared to most of the roles in her repertoire, Tosca was actually quite easy. When she returned to it in 1964, after a hiatus of 6 years, and not having sung in any opera at all for 3 years, she still made a profound impression in the role, even with considerably reduced vocal means. Norma, the other role of her mini come back, was a different proposition, and, though she sang some portions of the score more movingly than ever before, the rest was a series of hits and misses. Where she could wing her way through Tosca on sheer will and the momentum of the drama, Norma is now a much more frightening obstacle.

As I've pointed out elsewhere, though Callas is closely associated with the role of Tosca, this is mostly due to the success of the De Sabata recording and the Covent Garden production Zeffirelli mounted for her at the end of her career. She sang it quite a bit in her early years, but soon, apart from a few isolated performances, more or less dropped it from her repertoire, when she was more able to pick and choose the roles she sang. She made no secret of her preference for the music of Verdi, and the early nineteenth century Italian composers.

wagnernn · September 21, 2007, 04:16:29 AM

And how about Requiem by Verdi? Please show me the records of this piece with Nilsson.
I've just listened to the "Libera me" of this Requiem on Youtube .In my opinion,Nilsson 's voice is beautiful and strong enough to be suited with this.

Wendell_E · September 21, 2007, 06:30:42 AM

Quote from: wagnernn on September 21, 2007, 04:16:29 AM
And how about Requiem by Verdi? Please show me the records of this piece with Nilsson.
I've just listened to the "Libera me" of this Requiem on Youtube .In my opinion,Nilsson 's voice is beautiful and strong enough to be suited with this.

I've never heard it, but she did record the Requiem: http://www.amazon.com/Verdi-Requiem-Menotti-Bishop-Brindisi/dp/B00005JII2

Lilas Pastia · September 21, 2007, 07:31:13 AM

Thanks for that link, Wendell, I was not aware of this disc. The prospect of a Bergonzi Ingemisco is mouth watering...

Tsaraslondon · September 21, 2007, 08:41:21 AM

Quote from: wagnernn on September 21, 2007, 04:16:29 AM
And how about Requiem by Verdi? Please show me the records of this piece with Nilsson.
I've just listened to the "Libera me" of this Requiem on Youtube .In my opinion,Nilsson 's voice is beautiful and strong enough to be suited with this.

I listened to it on youtube, and it rather took me surpirse. I admit to enjoying it immensely. The singing is quite beautiful, and absolutely secure. However the timbre still strikes me as not quite right for Verdi. Here I would say the ideal voice would be Leontyne Price (particularly on the Karajan DVD from La Scala) or Tebaldi, who, unfortunately, never made a commercial recording of it. Mind you I love Schwarzkopf's performance, though she too is totally unidiomatic, and I quite understand why many don't take to it. I have heard the Requiem live quite a few times, and, maybe surprisingly, the soprano I remember most is Ricciarelli, in a performance conducted by Lamberto Gardelli at the Royal Festival Hall. Maybe it caught her on a good night, but she sang with radiant beauty and with a real and sincere appreciation of the text.