Turandot discussion

[Solitary Wanderer]

I'm off to see Turandot this Thursday night.

I'm learning it via this recording:


I also have the Met production to watch on Wednesday night:


I'm certainly enjoying it thus far.

Any comments or things to look out for will be apreciated 

[Anne]

You have a very lavish performance in that Met DVD.  Enjoy!  Watch out for oriental music in the opera.  I find it especially noticeable in the 3 men who sing together in the middle of the opera for 10 - 15 minutes.  They are on stage alone.  Maybe someone else can give you better help in locating the right spot for the oriental music.  Once you recognize it, you'll then find it everywhere in the opera.

[Solitary Wanderer]

You have a very lavish performance in that Met DVD.  Enjoy!  Watch out for oriental music in the opera.  I find it especially noticeable in the 3 men who sing together in the middle of the opera for 10 - 15 minutes.  They are on stage alone.  Maybe someone else can give you better help in locating the right spot for the oriental music.  Once you recognize it, you'll then find it everywhere in the opera.

Hi Anne:

Yes, I've noticed several traditional oriental themes themes in the music. Apparently Puccini discovered one of them from an old musical box he found!

Looking forward to the DVD as this is quite an elaborate opera to stage due to the fact that the entire chorus are on stage for much of the opera.

Pavarotti is wonderful as Calaf on the recording I have; an instantly recognizable voice with magnificent extension.

[Lilas Pastia]

Some videos can help:

Calaf, Liu and Timur (Non piangere Liu, Timur's Ah! per l'ultima volta - The three masks - Calaf strikes the gong): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YcqdOdUQsPs&mode=related&search=
Turandot : Nilsson (with Corelli) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OWle3od3BCc and with Cecchele http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n_vc_txniDM&mode=related&search=

The Riddle Scene (Nilsson and Cecchele, in two parts) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvsl3zxQWiU&mode=related&search=  and  http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=

Death of Liu (in concert - Caballé): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=

Final Scene (Cecchele and Nilsson): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=

[Anne]

I have the same recording.  Think I need to get it out and listen again as it's been awhile.  Enjoy the performance and let us know if you liked it.

[Lethevich]

I've been interested in trying this opera for a long time, but for some reason kept putting it off. A question - is it common for recordings to use the post-mortem completion of the ending by one of his students? Also, is there just the one version of that, or has it been completed differently since (I think that there is some controversy over the way it was composed)? I wouldn't want to sit through it only to find that the recording ended at where Puccini left it on his death, as I heard at least one conductor does. I'll assume that the Met DVD is the most well-produced and go for that one?

It's similar for Berg's Lulu - unfinished is just frustrating

[Tsaraslondon]

I've been interested in trying this opera for a long time, but for some reason kept putting it off. A question - is it common for recordings to use the post-mortem completion of the ending by one of his students? Also, is there just the one version of that, or has it been completed differently since (I think that there is some controversy over the way it was composed)? I wouldn't want to sit through it only to find that the recording ended at where Puccini left it on his death, as I heard at least one conductor does. I'll assume that the Met DVD is the most well-produced and go for that one?

It's similar for Berg's Lulu - unfinished is just frustrating

All recordings, as far as I know, use the Alfano ending. However you might be interested to know that this ending was also heavily cut by Toscanini. Alfano's original, longer and much more taxing ending was unearthed some years ago. I remember going to a concert performance at the Barbican which used the complete version. Sylvia Sass sang Turandot, the best thing I ever heard her do, which isn't to say she was ideal, but it was a lot better than her Norma and Elisabetta in Don Carlo. I believe Josephine Barstow recorded the complete Alfano ending on a recital disc for Decca, though I doubt it's still available. I don't think there are any complete recordings available using this longer ending, though. 

[Lethevich]

All recordings, as far as I know, use the Alfano ending. However you might be interested to know that this ending was also heavily cut by Toscanini. Alfano's original, longer and much more taxing ending was unearthed some years ago. I remember going to a concert performance at the Barbican which used the complete version. Sylvia Sass sang Turandot, the best thing I ever heard her do, which isn't to say she was ideal, but it was a lot better than her Norma and Elisabetta in Don Carlo. I believe Josephine Barstow recorded the complete Alfano ending on a recital disc for Decca, though I doubt it's still available. I don't think there are any complete recordings available using this longer ending, though. 

Thank you very much I'll proceed without caution, if it's very rare for it to be recorded in the unfinished state.

[Tsaraslondon]

Thank you very much I'll proceed without caution, if it's very rare for it to be recorded in the unfinished state.

I'm pretty sure that, apart from the very first performance, when Toscanini stopped the performance and turned to the audience, saying "This is where the maestro lay down his pen.", all staged performances also use the Alfano completion.

[Larry Rinkel]

I'm pretty sure that, apart from the very first performance, when Toscanini stopped the performance and turned to the audience, saying "This is where the maestro lay down his pen.", all staged performances also use the Alfano completion.

That is probably correct. There is also a very different completion by Luciano Berio, but although it's been recorded, it has not supplanted the (cut) Alfano version in popular usage.

As for Lulu, there is absolutely no reason for frustration. Berg completed virtually the entire Third Act in short score, and except for orchestration, Friedrich Cehra had very little actual composition to do when he completed the opera. Various passages had already been orchestrated by Berg as part of the Lulu Suite, and other passages could be taken from earlier acts as they shared parallel material. There's no reason or excuse for any opera house today to mount the two-act version, and the inclusion of the Cerha completion is one reason the Boulez recording is indispensable. (Though it's too bad Boulez had his Countess Geschwitz speak the final "Verdammt!" as in Wedekind; Berg's libretto specifically cuts this out.)

[Tsaraslondon]

That is probably correct. There is also a very different completion by Luciano Berio, but although it's been recorded, it has not supplanted the (cut) Alfano version in popular usage.

Thanks for reminding me of that. I knew someone well known had also done a completion, but couldn't remember who it was. I'd love to hear it. Have you?

[Lethevich]

I'm pretty sure that, apart from the very first performance, when Toscanini stopped the performance and turned to the audience, saying "This is where the maestro lay down his pen.", all staged performances also use the Alfano completion.

I'm surprised that nobody has felt the need to meddle with it to incorporate more of the original sketches (of which Alfano apparently left quite a lot out), as has happened with Bruckner's symphonies.

There's no reason or excuse for any opera house today to mount the two-act version

My main concern when researching a potential DVD purchase, was one of the reviews here which states that it is the two act version. I guess that this is a rarity?

Oh, and thank you I have no manners

[Wendell_E]

I'm pretty sure that, apart from the very first performance, when Toscanini stopped the performance and turned to the audience, saying "This is where the maestro lay down his pen.", all staged performances also use the Alfano completion.

Not quite all.  In the March 2005 issue of Opera News, there's a review of a perfomance of the opera in Dresden:

Director Andreas Homoki and conductor Fabio Luisi did not trust either ending. They decided the performance would stop where Puccini had stopped composing — after Liù's death. This turned out to be a splendid idea (in fact the evening's only one), for it cut short one of the most superficial, ridiculous and annoying productions in this reviewer's memory.

I've heard of a couple of other production's doing this, but it's certainly not standard.  As far as I know, all available recordings do use the Alfano ending (though some cut Turandot's aria "Del primo pianto").

There is a DVD that uses the Berio ending.  From the Salzburg Festival, with Gergiev conducting, with Gabriele Schnaut, Paata Burchuladze, Johan Botha, Cristina Gallardo Domas.  I haven't heard or seen it.  The review's I've read haven't been kind, but I think that's mostly because of Schnaut.

[Wendell_E]

My main concern when researching a potential DVD purchase, was one of the reviews here which states that it is the two act version [of Lulu]. I guess that this is a rarity?

Unfortunately, not as rare as it should be.  According to the Universal Edition website, there have been performances of the two-act version at the Theater am Bismarckplatz, Regensburg (2007), the Teatro de la Maestranza, Sevilla (2006), and (for shame!) Berg's home-town company, the Wiener Staatsoper (2005).  2005 also saw two-act Lulu's in Seville, Athens, Hamburg, and Tokyo. 

The Glyndebourne DVD is really good, and is the three-act version.

[Lethevich]

Unfortunately, not as rare as it should be.  According to the Universal Edition website, there have been performances of the two-act version at the Theater am Bismarckplatz, Regensburg (2007), the Teatro de la Maestranza, Sevilla (2006), and (for shame!) Berg's home-town company, the Wiener Staatsoper (2005).  2005 also saw two-act Lulu's in Seville, Athens, Hamburg, and Tokyo. 

The Glyndebourne DVD is really good, and is the three-act version.

The Schafer/Glyndebourne is certainly the most highly rated one, thank you for the confirmation on the number of acts. The label doesn't produce booklets for their DVDs, I think - their Makropulos Affair and Salome that I have didn't come with any, but I guess that is a minor quibble.

[Wendell_E]

The Schafer/Glyndebourne is certainly the most highly rated one, thank you for the confirmation on the number of acts. The label doesn't produce booklets for their DVDs, I think - their Makropulos Affair and Salome that I have didn't come with any, but I guess that is a minor quibble.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure all they have is a single sheet with the track listing.

[knight66]

Re Turandot, I believe the Berio ending is the one that Barstow recorded. I have never heard it, but the usual ending is certainly unsatisfactory up against Puccini's stated intent to produce something wonderfully new. What we get seems strident and simplistic.

Mike

[Wendell_E]

Re Turandot, I believe the Berio ending is the one that Barstow recorded.

Nope.  I've got that recording.  It says "First recording of complete Alfano ending".  It was recorded in 1989, more than a decade before the Berio version was premiered.

[Anne]

Some videos can help:

Calaf, Liu and Timur (Non piangere Liu, Timur's Ah! per l'ultima volta - The three masks - Calaf strikes the gong): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YcqdOdUQsPs&mode=related&search=
Turandot : Nilsson (with Corelli) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OWle3od3BCc and with Cecchele http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n_vc_txniDM&mode=related&search=

The Riddle Scene (Nilsson and Cecchele, in two parts) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvsl3zxQWiU&mode=related&search=  and  http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=

Death of Liu (in concert - Caballé): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=

Final Scene (Cecchele and Nilsson): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=

Lilas,

Thank you for all those video exerpts.  I can get no music out of my computer.  Son will fix it soon, I hope.  In the meantime I have bookmarked the selections to watch later.

[Larry Rinkel]

Nope.  I've got that recording.  It says "First recording of complete Alfano ending".  It was recorded in 1989, more than a decade before the Berio version was premiered.

The Berio has been used in performance a few times and is recorded on a Decca CD called Puccini Discoveries, conducted by Chailly. It is very different from the Alfano, much more introspective, and although derived in part from Puccini's sketches, it is harmonically daring to the point of not always fitting in well with Puccini's own style.