Turandot discussion

[m_gigena]

Get the Naxos Historical cds with Olivero, Cigna and Merli conducted by Ghione. Here you have the Fonit Cetra release of the whole work in low quality mp3 (courtesy of some korean webpage).

http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTI.mp3
http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTII.mp3
http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTIII.mp3

The excessive vibrato of Magda Olivero is fantastic and Francesco Merli is second to nobody

[zamyrabyrd]

You have a very lavish performance in that Met DVD.  Enjoy!  Watch out for oriental music in the opera.  I find it especially noticeable in the 3 men who sing together in the middle of the opera for 10 - 15 minutes.  They are on stage alone.  Maybe someone else can give you better help in locating the right spot for the oriental music.  Once you recognize it, you'll then find it everywhere in the opera.

I don't have a score of Turandot so can only say offhand from what I hear. There seems to be more than a little influence from Debussy in his use of whole tone scales, not necessarily Oriental, but give an exotic impression as with the French composer. Derived from and related to the whole tone scale, Puccini used the augmented 5th chord in Butterfly quite a bit, even thematically. This is somewhat different from the pentatonic scale on the black keys of the piano, also used by him to sound Oriental in both operas. When Butterfly is making inventory of her things to Pinkerton, "Sakura" a popular Japanese song, is quoted in the orchestra. A nice touch is the descending tritone E-D-Bb, from koto music, transposed to different keys and sprinkled liberally throughout.

Sorry if this is too technical but I couldn't explain it any other way.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

The excessive vibrato of Magda Olivero is fantastic and Francesco Merli is second to nobody

I'm a Magda Olivero fan but this recording allegedly from 1938 would not be a good record of hers for posterity. She had a great voice and range of expression but maybe took a long time in getting it together. There was a long gap in her career as well. The vibrato to my ears is irritating.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

I'm sitting here listening to Alfano's ending. Puccini, it ain't--too ponderous. He was a much cleverer orchestrator and used his own musical material in more than just 4 part harmony. Also the tenor in the outset sounded like he was singing Wagner. Nice try, though.

ZB

[knight66]

Nope.  I've got that recording.  It says "First recording of complete Alfano ending".  It was recorded in 1989, more than a decade before the Berio version was premiered.

Thanks for that.

Mike

[Lilas Pastia]

Get the Naxos Historical cds with Olivero, Cigna and Merli conducted by Ghione. Here you have the Fonit Cetra release of the whole work in low quality mp3 (courtesy of some korean webpage).

http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTI.mp3
http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTII.mp3
http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTIII.mp3

The excessive vibrato of Magda Olivero is fantastic and Francesco Merli is second to nobody

it should be noted that Olivero sings Liu, NOT the title role. The Ice Princess is sung by the french soprano, Gina Cigna.

[m_gigena]

it should be noted that Olivero sings Liu, NOT the title role. The Ice Princess is sung by the french soprano, Gina Cigna.

Does anyone actually give attention to Turandot when listening to this opera? Liu hijacks the whole drama.

[Lilas Pastia]

 

[Solitary Wanderer]

Yeah, the style of the writing after Lui's death is quite noticeably different. Not for the worse, just different. Using the main theme from Nessum Dorma for the grand finale was a good idea. I wonder how detailed Puccini's 'sketches' for the remainder of the opera were...

[jurajjak]

Yes, I've noticed several traditional oriental themes themes in the music. Apparently Puccini discovered one of them from an old musical box he found!

I recall reading somewhere--and I could be totally mistaken about this, so if I'm wrong I'll apologize in advance--that when this opera was premiered in China, audiences were both amused and bewildered by Puccini's grandiose treatment of Chinese folk themes, at least one of which was very well known.  To Chinese audiences at the time, Puccini's bombastic orchestration of simple folk tunes seemed unwieldy and absurd; I'd be interested to know more if there's any truth to this.   

[Tsaraslondon]

Yeah, the style of the writing after Lui's death is quite noticeably different. Not for the worse, just different. Using the main theme from Nessum Dorma for the grand finale was a good idea. I wonder how detailed Puccini's 'sketches' for the remainder of the opera were...

According to Charles Osborne in The Complete Operas of Puccini, Puccini's sketches total about 36 pages. Some of the music that has been criticised is actually found in the sketches, as for instance the opening bars of the duet. Turandot's aria exists only in fragments, but Alfano does incorporate into it several phrases Puccini intended. The 12 bar passage at the conclusion of the aria from Calaf's Il mio mistero? to Turnadot's so il tuo nome also exists in Puccini's sketches.

[yashin]

Lulu  is a superb opera.  I recommend the Glyndebourne production on DVD- truly excellent in every sense. 

The Met Turandot is another very good DVD.  I do like Marton though and i enjoy Mitchell as Liu.  Domingo as Calaf looks and sounds good although there is that odd event at the end of Nessun Dorma where he cracked on the high note and it was later redone and it looks very odd.

On disc i very much like the Karajan cd with Domingo also in.  Gorgeous sound and a nice version all round.

I do have the Schnaut/Botha DVD from Salzburg.  An interesting production but non of the principles are at their best and Gergeiv drives the orchestra too hard in my opinion.

[Tsaraslondon]

On disc i very much like the Karajan cd with Domingo also in.  Gorgeous sound and a nice version all round.

But how can you possibly like Ricciarelli's strained and over parted Turandot? This is definitely an example of Karajan's risky casting policy not paying off.

[Solitary Wanderer]

Watched this last night.

It was excellent; Domingo and Martin were both wonderful. The sets and costumes were sumptuous. The Ping, Pang & Pong bits were a bit tiring [I didn't find them annoying on audio disc] but this very minor quibble aside I enjoyed the spectacle immensely.

Opera is an art form that needs to be seen as well as heard! 

Note: Off to the live performance tonight 

[Lilas Pastia]

I can understand the Liu vs Turandot  conundrum. Liu is doomed from the start because she is so submissive (as Micaëla is in Carmen). One roots for her - as certainly Puccini did. He may have found it very difficult to follow Liu's death with anything emotionally significant. One realizes that throughout his carreer, he had success with - and sympathy for - the dying soprano. Turandot is very much the exception here, but one has to believe that Puccini wanted love AND life to triumph. He was himself going to die, in the final stages of his throat cancer. The only time he didn't make his soprano die is in Fanciulla and Gianni Schicchi. Maybe not coincidentally, Minnie is one of his most difficult roles to portray. It might have been more congenial dramatically to have her shot at the hands of Jack Rance, dying in the arms of the tenor. But it didn't fit the optimistic myth of the hero(es) riding away in the western sunset glow.

[zamyrabyrd]

While on the subject, put your seatbelt on first:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=82fCDGmDm7s&mode=related&search=
 
"Anna Shafajinskaia...won the Pavarotti International Voice Competition. A year later she was chosen by Pavarotti to sing Tosca opposite him."

...no mean competition...that is, in volume...she seems very exciting...any comments?

ZB

[Wendell_E]

While on the subject, put your seatbelt on first:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=82fCDGmDm7s&mode=related&search=
 
"Anna Shafajinskaia...won the Pavarotti International Voice Competition. A year later she was chosen by Pavarotti to sing Tosca opposite him."

...no mean competition...that is, in volume...she seems very exciting...any comments?

ZB

I saw her sing the role in New Orleans, and she was wonderful.  Unfortunately, her eye makeup reminded me of Divine's in Pink Flamingos, and her acting after Calaf kisses her reminded me of Polyester, when Tab Hunter kisses Divine. 

Unfortunately the Calaf and Liu (Eduardo Villa and Sally Dibblee), weren't anywhere near Shafayinskaya's "divine" level.

[yashin]

i too saw Anna Shafajinskaia -but in Birmingham, UK.  She was superb. Although it was some years ago.

I do like Ricciarelli's interpretation.  I find her much more satisfying than say Sutherland or Caballe in the same role.  I admire Nilsson but am not a huge fan of her steely voice.  I much prefer Borkh on the Decca set with Del Monaco.  Although my choice for Calaf would have to be Bjoerling or Corelli.  Domingo and the late Pavarotti are non-starters in comparison!

Best of all on the Karajan set is the gorgeous Liu of Barbara Hendricks- am not sure i have heard anyone sing so sweetly in the role.  My heart stops when she and Turandot confront one another before she stabs herself.

One good recommendation is the Chandos version in English with Jane Eaglen as Turandot.  Is a very nice version beautifully recorded.  One of the best in the series.

[Lilas Pastia]

The Karajan version has many virtues and it should definitely be heard. It's too heavy most of the time though. The whole affair is crushing and overpowering rather than kaleidoscopic and brilliantly colourful.

Turandot is a work that operates on many musical and dramatic levels. It's far more sophisticated than Tosca. There's comedy, drama, supernatural happenings, evocation of legends, a living god, commedia dell'arte characters mingling with axe-wielding executioners and sex-craved foreign prince, the works.

This Shafajinskaia video is impressive in parts, but she sings flat a lot of the time. The voice is huge, but she has trouble lifting it up and she sings under the note. I don't know if that's why she moves and sings so slowly, but this Ice Princess fails to light up my fire.

[Tsaraslondon]

I do like Ricciarelli's interpretation.  I find her much more satisfying than say Sutherland or Caballe in the same role.  I admire Nilsson but am not a huge fan of her steely voice.  I much prefer Borkh on the Decca set with Del Monaco.  Although my choice for Calaf would have to be Bjoerling or Corelli.  Domingo and the late Pavarotti are non-starters in comparison!

Best of all on the Karajan set is the gorgeous Liu of Barbara Hendricks- am not sure i have heard anyone sing so sweetly in the role.  My heart stops when she and Turandot confront one another before she stabs herself.

Well I suppose we all hear voices differently. I feel the same as you about Nilsson, but at no point could prefer Ricciarelli's Turandot to those of Sutherland and Caballe, though I admit that Caballe's commercial recording is nowhere near as good as the live one from San Francisco. Sutherland, of course, never sang the role on stage, and I have to say that when it was announced that she would record it, I thought it a piece of casting every bit as risky as that of Ricciarelli. In fact a good few people thought that the announcement was wrong and that Caballe would be singing Turandot to Sutherland's Liu. I am not a huge Sutherland fan, but this is one case where a risky but of casting paid off superbly and, to my ears, she is the most all round satisfying Turandot on record, if not as psychologically probing as Callas, who, unfortunately, recorded it too late in her career.

On the other hand, I do agree that Hendricks's Liu is lovely. I actually heard her do the role in concert at the Barbican, when Sass sang the full Alfano ending of the score. I have a feeling Bonisolli was Calaf. Whoever it was, there is no doubt Hendricks stole the show. She was superb and won the longest ovation of the night.