Pieces that are too long?

[Sergeant Rock]

Suk's Fantastic Scherzo, a piece I adore but have always thought could be shaved by a minute or two to excise unnecessary repetition. As delightful as the themes are, they just don't warrant that much time. The same could be said for most of Bruckner's scherzi.

I don't agree...nor do most critics and musicologists. The consensus is: Bruckner was incapable of writing a weak scherzo.

Sarge

[Keemun]

Some pieces that I think that are too long:

* * *

MAHLER: . . . 2nd Symphony (after the Urlicht)

  I disagree, the fifth movement is wonderful.   

[Mark]

I don't agree...nor do most critics and musicologists. The consensus is: Bruckner was incapable of writing a weak scherzo.

Sarge

Looks like I'm gonna go against the grain here, too, Sarge - love Bruckner, but those Scherzi ...

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm going to dig out something I wrote a year or more ago on the previous version of this board....

You beat me to the punch, Larry, and in far superior style than I could muster. My basic point being: each time the narrative is repeated, it's from a different character or characters' perspective and we gain further insight into and knowledge about the action and consequences of the action. To criticize Wagner because he didn't write fast-paced, crowd pleasing theatrical drama like Verdi and Puccini is to miss the point of his epics. It's as nonsensical as criticizing Dante or Cervantes because The Divine Comedy isn't a sonnet or Don Quixote a short story.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Looks like I'm gonna go against the grain here, too, Sarge - love Bruckner, but those Scherzi ...

You're weird, Mark.

Sarge

[Mark]

You're weird, Mark.

Sarge

I know. Makes for an interesting life.

[Sergeant Rock]

I know. Makes for an interesting life.

Makes for an interesting forum anyway 

Sarge

[MDL]

  I disagree, the fifth movement is wonderful.   

Yes, quite! The last movement is enthralling.

[Florestan]

Bad editors: Mahler, Wagner (  )
Excellent editors: Mozart, Haydn, Chopin, Brahms, Hugo Wolf

[Lethevich]

Re. Bruckner - the scherzos work well IMO, and the repetition is very deliberate (like in the adagios). When played by a powerful orchestra, each repetition builds up such a feeling of momentum and gravity.

[Mark]

Re. Bruckner - the scherzos work well IMO, and the repetition is very deliberate (like in the adagios). When played by a powerful orchestra, each repetition builds up such a feeling of momentum and gravity.

Hmm ... not sure I'd agree here about the repetitions in some of Bruckner's work. I seem to recall recently becoming quite annoyed with them in one of his symphonies, though which one I don't remember. Possibly the performance was at fault.

[m_gigena]

SCHUMANN: 4th movement of the first piano Sonata

I may agree. But only because I love the coda and I can't wait to listen to it.

[Mr Bloom]

Most of Shostakovich's symphonies.

[knight66]

Tell me exactly what you'd cut.

I know we got into this territory with Mahler, but people would not specify what they did not like. I also would welcome cuts in Wagner. I would have quite a bit of Siegfried scissored, especially act 1...all the endless winging and act 2. Even the love duet at the end seems overextended. Of course, I know he was a genius, he wrote exactly what he wanted, but for me, sitting in the theatre, I find my circulation in danger and my bum numb.

I was at a concert performance of Meistersingers last year and there were long passages in act 1 and act 2 where I ached for things to move on. Wagner can drive me nuts with the double repetition of the exposition. Sometimes I think he felt the audience was thick that it needed to be told so much three times.

I know it is symphonic and that it is through written and each section relates to earlier and later sections. I know it is sacrilege, I am not suggesting it always be performed with heavy cuts....just when I am around.

Conversely, I would leave Walkure, Gotterdammerung and Tristan severely alone, so I am not a total philistine, just a part time one.

Mike

[marvinbrown]

I know we got into this territory with Mahler, but people would not specify what they did not like. I also would welcome cuts in Wagner. I would have quite a bit of Siegfried scissored, especially act 1...all the endless winging and act 2. Even the love duet at the end seems overextended. Of course, I know he was a genius, he wrote exactly what he wanted, but for me, sitting in the theatre, I find my circulation in danger and my bum numb.

Mike

  My heart aches as I am reading this......... Siegfried Act 1 is a high point for me, Fafner's leitmotif, the steel forging scene, the three question exchange between Mime and Wotan disguised as the Wanderer, Siegfried's realization that he is not of Mime's kind, oh dear lots of very fine moments.  Mike,  I play Act 1 of Siegfried more than any other, and Solti's recording is filled with excitement and power.........   I guess I stand alone here  !

  marvin 

[knight66]

You see....I am not surprised; so, it is only when I am around that they need to retain the high points and flood the plains around them.

Mike

[val]

Mark

Looks like I'm gonna go against the grain here, too, Sarge - love Bruckner, but those Scherzi ...

To me, the Scherzi of the 2nd and 9th Symphonies are perhaps the most beautiful ever composed. Please Mark, listen to the Scherzo of the 2nd conducted by Chailly or the Scherzo of the 9th with Furtwängler or Van Beinum. It is extraordinary music.
Perhaps you are thinking about the Scherzi of the 6th, 7th or 8th: I agree with you that they seem a little pale compared to the other movements.

[Mark]

To me, the Scherzi of the 2nd and 9th Symphonies are perhaps the most beautiful ever composed. Please Mark, listen to the Scherzo of the 2nd conducted by Chailly or the Scherzo of the 9th with Furtwängler or Van Beinum. It is extraordinary music.
Perhaps you are thinking about the Scherzi of the 6th, 7th or 8th: I agree with you that they seem a little pale compared to the other movements.

Thanks, Val. I think it was the Fifth or Eighth Symphony's scherzo which grated on me. Will have to listen anew.