Boring themes

[rappy]

To me it happens frequently that I listen to a new piece by a well known composer and ask myself: why did that guy write a whole movement over this boring theme?

Does that happen to you either? My last experience was the Op 77/2 Haydn quartet. He wrote so very enjoyable quartets, but when I listened to the first movement of this, I thought just one thing: boring.

[dtwilbanks]

This probably happens quite often to most people.

[Lethevich]

This is my fundimental problem with a lot of 20th century "romantic" or "neo romantic" music

[rappy]

I'd not limit it to that category! It even happens to me when listening to Beethoven: some early and mid piano sonatas for example. Strangely not to his symphonies. I noticed that very often: Symphonies, if not early Haydn or early Schubert or something like that, seem to never lack of good themes - to me. Is it because I'm more into the genre or did composers indeed use their best melodic inspirations for their symphonies while they thought "that theme is not that strong, let's use it for a little sonata"? Hard to imagine.

[quintett op.57]

To me it happens frequently that I listen to a new piece by a well known composer and ask myself: why did that guy write a whole movement over this boring theme?

Does that happen to you either? My last experience was the Op 77/2 Haydn quartet. He wrote so very enjoyable quartets, but when I listened to the first movement of this, I thought just one thing: boring.

I find it very good, even if, to my ears, it's not a masterpiece like some of the op.76.

This is my fundimental problem with a lot of 20th century "romantic" or "neo romantic" music

which composers for exemple?

[Lethevich]

which composers for exemple?

One example that comes to mind is Howard Hanson. While I find the symphonies to be impeccably crafted, they sometimes seem to lack the extra melodic spark that Shostakovich or Vaughan Williams seem to be able to bring to their music. He's not the best example though, as his music is quite lyrical, but I can't think of a more appropriate one atm.

At the most extreme end of the spectrum, Wilhelm Furtwängler's symphonies which have almost no memorable themes at all, and come across as academic excercises, but, then, they are justly neglected.

[BachQ]

When in the context of "great" composers, themes which fail in melody often succeed in other functions ........

[rappy]

That applies to Brahms 4th symphony, first movement, certainly. But I don't think it's that simple. Even some great composers sometimes seemed to lack of melodies. E.g., almost every Tchaikovsky movement contains a beautiful melody. In contrast to Tchaikovsky, there are many Schumann chamber works where I just don't find a beautiful theme (for example the piano trios). But that might be just my problem.

[Lethevich]

That applies to Brahms 4th symphony, first movement, certainly. But I don't think it's that simple. Even some great composers sometimes seemed to lack of melodies. E.g., almost every Tchaikovsky movement contains a beautiful melody. In contrast to Tchaikovsky, there are many Schumann chamber works where I just don't find a beautiful theme (for example the piano trios). But that might be just my problem.

Tchaikovsky was definitely one of the greatest melodists in classical music (Dvořák as well), and I can see your point with Schumann, But Schumann wasn't intending to write in the same way, I think. His music is more introspective and looking towards Beethoven, who tended to focus on rigorous composition, wheras sometimes with composers like Tchaikovsky, it seems that the melody alone carries the piece.

[rappy]

I've heard that point quite often yet, but never understood it: why does a beautiful theme exclude rigorous composition? Shouldn't a symbiosis of both be the thing a composer endeavours?

[Lethevich]

I've heard that point quite often yet, but never understood it: why does a beautiful theme exclude rigorous composition? Wouldn't a symbiosis of both the thing a composers endeavour?

It shouldn't - and in fact, Dvořák combines the two quite well, but there does seem to be a trend of that kind of composition throughout history. I mean, Schubert was a genius melodist, but in some movements there is much less done inside them than Beethoven would, as Schubert seems satisfied to let the "big tune" carry the movement. I'm not 100% sure though.

[jochanaan]

Some great composers--Beethoven is a prime example--make wonderful music out of themes that, when you look at them closely, seem hardly themes at all, like the famous "Three G's and an E flat.  Nothing more.  Baby simple." (Leonard Bernstein)  Each movement's theme of Hindemith's Symphony in E flat begins with a variant of the same three-note cell; Holst's First Suite for Band uses a similar device.  And in Mahler's Eighth Symphony, every theme is merely a fragment or variant of the choral theme in the first five measures.

On the other hand, Tchaikovsky's Second Symphony uses melodies that are very unlike his usual beautiful ones; the second and fourth movement's themes in particular seem extraordinarily dull.  This is my least favorite Tchaikovsky symphony.  And it's not just because it's an early work either; I love his First Symphony dearly, passionately.

[jochanaan]

I've heard that point quite often yet, but never understood it: why does a beautiful theme exclude rigorous composition? Shouldn't a symbiosis of both be the thing a composer endeavours?

Sometimes a long, flowing melody doesn't take well to being dissected or varied as many great composers will.  That's not always true; many of Bruckner's themes work as well in inversion as they do "straight;" but sometimes it's just best to let the melody be itself and carry the composition.

[Lethevich]

Sometimes a long, flowing melody doesn't take well to being dissected or varied as many great composers will.  That's not always true; many of Bruckner's themes work as well in inversion as they do "straight;" but sometimes it's just best to let the melody be itself and carry the composition.

Great point, I think there's a moment in the 7th's first movement that utilises an inverted theme. Bruckner was a master craftsman.

[jochanaan]

Great point, I think there's a moment in the 7th's first movement that utilises an inverted theme. Bruckner was a master craftsman.

That's the one I was thinking about! He does the same thing in the last movement.  Sometimes I think he was a Medieval or Renaissance composer born four hundred years too late.

[71 dB]

Perhaps I am missing something fundamental about Brahms' music but I have noticed I find it boring surprisingly often... 

[dtwilbanks]

Perhaps I am missing something fundamental about Brahms' music but I have noticed I find it boring surprisingly often... 

When I like Brahms, I *really* like him. Then there are other times: zzzzzz. He can seem a bit dry I guess.

[knight66]

The Havanaise from Act 1 of Carmen is really quite a boring melody, but as was suggested earlier, there can be other qualities lurking and it can be hypnotic in the right hands.

Mike

[karlhenning]

Perhaps I am missing something fundamental about Brahms' music but I have noticed I find it boring surprisingly often...

If you listen to Brahms immediately after The Apostles, you will better appreciate Brahms's brilliance, perhaps.

If, that is, at the end of The Apostles, you are still awake.

Which, granted, is a question.

[knight66]

And then you complain when he swears in frustration?

Mike