Many perplexing questions regarding Wagner's Ring Cycle

[marvinbrown]

Wendell_E's assessment seems to me quite close to the mark!

Only to mention a few points where many more can be mentioned regarding the whole cycle.

Does the end of the Ring sound like a requiem or a renewal? Must a 'twilight' not also presage a 'dawn'? The final question being, what is myth supposed to convey in the first place if not an insight into truth and it's redemptive qualities, that is, the REAL POWERS which keep life and the generations moving?

Love becomes it's own negative, a nuclear event when it transmutes to a single purpose, the unrestricted greed for power, the Holy Grail of low lifes to become potent and for Gods – let's call them CEO's - allowance to exceed their limits. It's consequences are colossal – a Götterdämmerung in the making!

But in the END, the old Gods and their power-broking ways are nullified and The Ring is returned to the Rhine Maidens. Why would that be if nothing were left alive and what would be the point? Power will return to those who have no Will to Power denoted in the Redemption through Love motive. No words can describe it therefore no words exist! It's ultra-verbal and only Sound has the power to confirm it's meaning which is why we must listen to the music as already mentioned! But even then, it seems, we interpret in different ways.

I don't believe Wagner would have found it necessary that the world be expunged only that it be reordered. Evidently there were lines written by him but never set to music. It refers to Brunnhilde addressing those who will remain after the annihilation of Herself, Valhalla and the Gods. To them she surrenders:

...her wisdom's holiest hoard!
Not Gods, nor gold, nor house, nor hearth, not empty treaties, nor false tradition's pitiless law! Blessed in joy and in sorrow, I bequeath only love!

It may sound corny and could be the reason why Wagner sublimated it into a peroration far in advance of its verbal meaning.

Her death and the corruption she destroyed with it denote a beginning. She is one of 'Those Mythic Hero's of a Thousand Faces!', the means to a necessary end which is also an incipience.

In Wagner's output what followed was the mystic and psychologically twisted kind of Christianity rendered in Parsifal. Nietzsche had other ideas!
   
The Ring can be interpreted in so many ways as manifested by the number of books which attempt it and the stage productions which present it. Jung regarded the work as one of the world's most visionary and therefore capable of many meanings. But consider the title itself: Götterdämmerung, "The Twilight of the Gods", NOT the Twilight of the World which has seen many Gods. Wagner was certainly among the first as composer and dramatist to be interested in Buddhism, Hindu myths and philosophy and it's corresponding time scales.

  Max I am inclined to believe that the end of the Ring is both a Requiem and a Renewal.  Most of Wagner's works revolve around three major themes, Love, Death and Redemption.  Renewal coming from Death (Requiem) which seems to be always required as far as Wagner is concerned.  Purging of the old to have a purified new beginning seems necessary.  Which brings us to Alberich and his fate- a topic that concerns me alot and to which I place a lot of value.  Leaving Alberich (or the idea of Alberich- power hunger and renunciation of love) alive troubles me not because he is insignificant without the Ring nor any other hypothetical explanation, but because of Wagner's concept of Redemption and Rebirth and what that means if Alberich is left alive.  I would like to argue and open for debate that a fully redeemed world must be 100% pure- purged of all evil rendering it innocent.  This can not happen with Alberich's survival since it was Alberich's nature that led to the destruction of the old world (or at least the destruction of the Gods and all else that has chosen power over love)- this point I shall come to now.   You and Wendell raise a compelling argument against my inclination to believe that as ACD points out the whole old world is fully destroyed :  Wendell argued that men and women are still alive to see the destruction of the Gods  which as you Max so correctly pointed out is the title of last opera "Twilight of the Gods" and not "Twilight of the World" which leads to your argument of granting power through love to those who had  No Will to Power to begin with, the  people, the innocent.  I find it hard to believe that some of this power in the form of love is restored to Alberich who has renounced love all along. 

  So where do we go from here:  how about this:

  All that is impure, power hungry, willing to renounce love of the old world is destroyed, along with Alberich, but all that is innocent remains as power is restored and returned through rebirth and redemption to those who had no will to it to begin with.  Every innocent being in this newly redeemed world will be empowered through love as bequethed by Brunhilde.  Can we all live with this conclusion??  Or have I gone astray again.

  marvin


     

[max]

All that is impure, power hungry, willing to renounce love of the old world is destroyed, along with Alberich, but all that is innocent remains as power is restored and returned through rebirth and redemption to those who had no will to it to begin with.  Every innocent being in this newly redeemed world will be empowered through love as bequethed by Brunhilde.  Can we all live with this conclusion??  Or have I gone astray again.

Whether or not you’ve gone astray is not the point. As long as it clicks for you at THIS time it will have served its purpose. There aren’t many who would have given the Ring or even the subject of Wagner as much attention as you have. The man is anathema to many on GMG! Nevertheless, he remains one of the World’s greatest and most complex creators.

In the context of my last sentence, the only thing I’d like to point out in your post is that Wagner did not write fairy tales, which can also be very complex and subject to their own kind of interpretation but doesn’t include the lived happily ever after kind!

No one is innocent or ever will be. Perfection does not exist least of all in the Gods we create! Everything is subject to corruption. Even the highest perfection seeded with a single grain of impurity will succumb to it in time which is the reason why cycles occur and must occur if life is to continue.

Consider the Garden of Eden story where God [fate] not man is the source of that impurity by the injunction He made. Man in a state of grace on familiar terms with his creator. It was clearly only a matter of time….!

Brunnhilde’s legacy of Love will also be corrupted if not by Alberich who is either dead or sterilized of power – not much of a distinction really – but by other Alberichs not yet born. They will ALWAYS be outsmarted by the CEO’s of the standing world!

The saga of the Ring, in short, denotes only ONE such revolution nested in it’s own myth. A poor beggar outsmarted in short order by the Gods who eventually outsmart themselves. But there is always one who won’t play the game who by sacrifice conjoins an ending to it’s beginning which can only be accomplished by a human who is Godlike.

…anyways, as previously mentioned, the Ring is an extremely complex work and Wagner must certainly have been as unaware of certain of its ramifications as Einstein was in regard to his own theories.

…also, I think that’s all I want to say on the subject.

[Mark]

I've not read it yet, but the Rosicrucian mystic/occultist, Max Heindel, wrote a book on the esoteric nature of some of the great operas. You can read his work in full here.

[uffeviking]

I've not read it yet,

Then use your spare time listening to Karl Heinz Stockhausen or Hildegard von Bingen! The very first sentence I read in the chapter Walküre states that the Nibelungs are Wotan's children. Granted, the guy had his extramarital adventures, but fathering the Nibelungs? With whom? 

David Z.: Am I wrong? 

[Mark]

Thanks for link.

Don't bother reading it !  No offence, but I found it to be pseudo-religious crap.  As far as the 'Ring' goes I doubt if Wagner would have identified with any of it.

Ah, but you see, I have great admiration for such writings. I've read a good deal of Heindel's work, love H P Blavatsky and other Theosophists, and have a long-standing inclination towards such 'pseudo-religious' crap.

And I promise you in all sincerity, no offence was taken.

[longears]

Don't bother reading it !  No offence, but I found it to be pseudo-religious crap.  As far as the 'Ring' goes I doubt if Wagner would have identified with any of it.

The idea of someone who takes Wagner seriously dismissing anything as 'pseudo-religious crap' is hilarious.  Thanks for the belly laugh!

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I think Alberich's survival makes perfect sense, considering that in original ending Brünnhilde says that Alberich is now redeemed and free from lovelessness that plagued him. While in the final ending Brünnhilde does not mention Alberich I think he was given a second chance, and that he was redeemed from the lovelessness which tortured him. Also I totally believe that he is alive in the end. Nothing in final stage directions implies that everyone perishes. Stage directions clearly mention rhinemaidens playing with the ring and people looking in awe at the destruction of Valhalla. And considering that the cycle started with rhinemaidens and Alberich doesn't it make sense that they are one of the few characters alive in the end? It begun with rhinemaidens and Alberich, it ends with rhinemaidens and redeemed Alberich somewhere. I also don't see the reason why Alberich should have been killed off. His life was hell to begin with and while some of his actions are inexcusable (such as enslaving his own people) you can still see how the guy feels. He's suffered so much, why should he die as well (except if you think that death is mercy to such a plighted creature as he)? Redemption through love is a constant theme in Wagner's operas: Tannhäuser is redeemed through Elizabeth's love, Dutchman through Senta's, Kundry is redeemed because of Parsifal's compassion and now in the Ring Alberich is redeemed through Brünnhilde's sacrifice. Wagner himself certainly identified with Alberich, at least once signing his letter "Your Nibelung prince, Alberich" and commenting to Cosima that he had always felt sympathy towards him. Of course Dutchman, Tannhäuser and Kundry died but I don't think redemption automatically equals death.

Edit: Wendell_E actually said essentially the same thing on most parts, just noticed.

[Wendell_E]

Tannhäuser is redeemed through Elizabeth's love, Dutchman through Senta's, Kundry is redeemed because of Parsifal's compassion and now in the Ring Alberich is redeemed through Brünnhilde's sacrifice.

Hmmm.  Of course, in spite of their redemption, Tannhäuser, the Dutchman, and Kundry all die.  And unlike those three, Alberich really doesn't seemed even the least little bit interested in redemption.  I think Wotan's a more likely prospect for being redeemed by Brünnhilde.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I agree somewhat but while it's true that Alberich doesn't show remorse for his actions I think it's kind of a trapped-in-the-villainy syndrome. Like with macbeth who instead of repenting just keeps doing more and more atrocities. Of course, Macbeth was hardly redeemed but there is at least a glimpse of redemption possible presented in play at some points but Macbeth ignores them, saying that he has come too far. I think that while Alberich is hardly a nice person, much of his bitterness probably is a result of some immense self-hatred. While Alberich seems to hate everyone else (except POSSIBLY Hagen) he also is, like Wotan, enemy of himself. He certainly doesn't enjoy the way he is. Please note that I have obsession with Alberich's character (likewise with Wotan) and I am perhaps a bit more optimistic than most people regarding the ending of the ring. Even though I acknowledge that Alberich rarely if ever repents what he's done I still believe in the redemption ending: he doesn't enjoy being a loveless creature and if Brünnhilde's sacrifice doesn't outright redeem him it can at least push him in the right direction so that he may one day be a better person after allowed to love once again. Despite of his misdeeds I find it very hard not to feel great deal of pity towards him.

I apologize if I am over-enthusiastic with this. It's just that Ring is exceptionally important to me because it was how I became interested in classical music in the first place. I guess my logic about Alberich's redemption is just as turgid as much of Wagner's prose style, lot of it doesn't make completely sense but at least to me it seems correct in it's own bizarre way. Not trying to push my beliefs down your throat 

// Oh and I agree that Wotan's redemption is quite possible. One thing that bothered me in Götterdämmerung were Brünnhilde's accusations against Wotan in her final monologue. It kind of kills the most tender and comforting part in entire ring where Brünnhilde and his father are reconciled, in act 3 of die walküre. Now Brünnhilde seems to despise him? Of course Wotan is in indirect way responsible for Siegfried's death but it kind of rubs me in the wrong way remembering how I shed many tears during Wotan's final monologue in die Walküre.

[DavidW]

This is probably the result of me being inattentive... but why does Siegfried leave Brunhilde?  It is a strange act for an in love newly wed to do.  "I'll just take your steed and leave you in your ring of fire, see ya!"  This is before he takes the potion.  So what is up with that?

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Kind of the same problem Fricka had with Wotan in Rheingold. In Ring the male characters want to adventure around the world it seems. Or, how Wotan put it:

"Wandel und Wechsel
liebt, wer lebt;
das Spiel drum kann ich nicht sparen!"

Not very thoughtful but considering how female characters are often treated in the myths this is pretty tame.

[DavidW]

That makes sense, sad but makes sense.

[Lisztianwagner]

// Oh and I agree that Wotan's redemption is quite possible. One thing that bothered me in Götterdämmerung were Brünnhilde's accusations against Wotan in her final monologue. It kind of kills the most tender and comforting part in entire ring where Brünnhilde and his father are reconciled, in act 3 of die walküre. Now Brünnhilde seems to despise him? Of course Wotan is in indirect way responsible for Siegfried's death but it kind of rubs me in the wrong way remembering how I shed many tears during Wotan's final monologue in die Walküre.

I would like that too, but I don't think there can be hope of redemption for Wotan as Wagner originally conceived it in the first version of the Ring; because the only true possible redemption according to Wagner's ideas (and Schopenhauer's philosophy) is the dissolution in the eternal nothing that eventually frees from the Will. What does Wotan say to Brünnhilde in the second act of Die Walküre? "Auf geb' ich mein Werk; nur Eines will ich noch: das Ende, das Ende!".

[Karl Henning]

A "god" in need of redemption: there you have it.

[Karl Henning]

Richard Wagner- The God of Opera!

Another "god" in need of redemption

(* chortle *)

[Jaakko Keskinen]

This is actually related to Parsifal but I thought I might as well put it here, no need to start the whole new topic. How can Klingsor be a bass considering his umm... condition...?

[Sergeant Rock]

This is actually related to Parsifal but I thought I might as well put it here, no need to start the whole new topic. How can Klingsor be a bass considering his umm... condition...?

Opera magic.

Sarge

[mc ukrneal]

This is actually related to Parsifal but I thought I might as well put it here, no need to start the whole new topic. How can Klingsor be a bass considering his umm... condition...?

Possible, but it depends. If he was castrated after his voice had already changed, his voice would remain unchanged. Castration affects vocals only if done before the change. If his voice was already deep, it would stay deep.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

thanks, that explains a lot!