Wagner moments

[Larry Rinkel]

...last post on the subject. PROMISE!

Hopefully you will keep your word. 

Long and sometime inaccurate rant snipped: For example, Voltaire also wrote this:
"But in the midst of all these rude irregularities, which to this day make the English theatre so absurd and so barbarous, there are to be found in "Hamlet" by a yet greater incongruity sublime strokes worthy of the loftiest geniuses. It seems as if nature had taken a delight in collecting within the brain of Shakespeare all that we can imagine of what is greatest and most powerful, with all that rudeness without wit can contain of what is lowest and most detestable."

That's a far more nuanced atittude than your quotation implies.
See also: http://www.canadianshakespeares.ca/essays/voltaire.cfm

And though Jonson's work was performed as much as Shakespeare's following the reopening of the theaters in the Restoration, Shakespeare's reputation as England's national poet was becoming firmly established by the mid-18th century, about 125 (not a few hundred) years after his death, thanks in part to editions and criticism by Pope and Samuel Johnson.

Be that as it may, in response to your main line of attack: Being someone who as you make quite clear is not at all into hero-worship, and who sneers at my "unbalanced" sentiments as being "almost a neurosis," and many similar retorts, I'm sure you would never think of saying or writing anything remotely like, "I don't know why when reading Shakespeare's plays the word SUPERMAN always comes to mind. It feels as if NOTHING was beyond him - except a longer life!"

[max]

Hopefully you will keep your word. 

I will even though I could add a few

[Larry Rinkel]

I will even though I could add a few

Oh good, Max. Wouldn't want to think we had a case of the pot calling the kettle black here. 

[Haffner]

1) All well worth reading. None remotely equal Shakespeare.

Hemingway?

[Larry Rinkel]

Hemingway?

Hemingway ditto. I haven't seen any author proposed so far who matches Shakespeare's range of human understanding or his gift for language. (And of course I don't consider Shakespeare a SUPERMAN; I've gone out of my way to indicate several cases where I think he had some notable failures. Again, that doesn't really matter in view of what he did achieve.)

[Florestan]

I haven't seen any author proposed so far who matches Shakespeare's range of human understanding or his gift for language.

If we extend the range of candidates to non-English authors, I suggest Cervantes, Goethe, Dostoievsky and Dante, in no particular order.

[Haffner]

If we extend the range of candidates to non-English authors, I suggest Cervantes, Goethe, Dostoievsky and Dante, in no particular order.

It's only my opinion, but certainly Goethe and Dostoevsky deserve mention very much in the same breath as Shakespeare. In fact, I'd have to put Dostoevsky's work on the same level of psychological insight... perhaps even more so. I'd also easily throw in Hemingway and Poe as well. Works like Norman Mailer's Naked and the Dead and William Styron's Sophie's Choice are comparable to anything W.S. wrote.

Finally, though Nietzsche was not on the literary level of any of the above, his Thus Spoke Zarathustra is a literary exposition which has staggeringly broader and more profound psychological ramifications than perhaps any other writer in the past 500 years (conservative estimation). I would also like to assert that, in terms of modern applicability( especially in the West), it's possible that no other writer has had more influence than Nietzsche (this most certainly includes Freud, whom borrowed liberally from his writings).

Again, this is only my opinion (that of a middle-aged guitar teacher in Vermont with only an Associate's Degree in English).

[Renfield]

It's only my opinion, but certainly Goethe and Dostoevsky deserve mention very much in the same breath as Shakespeare. In fact, I'd have to put Dostoevsky's work on the same level of psychological insight... perhaps even more so. I'd also easily throw in Hemingway and Poe as well. Works like Norman Mailer's Naked and the Dead and William Styron's Sophie's Choice are comparable to anything W.S. wrote.

Finally, though Nietzsche was not on the literary level of any of the above, his Thus Spoke Zarathustra is a literary exposition which has staggeringly broader and more profound psychological ramifications than perhaps any other writer in the past 500 years (conservative estimation). I would also like to assert that, in terms of modern applicability( especially in the West), it's possible that no other writer has had more influence than Nietzsche (this most certainly includes Freud, whom borrowed liberally from his writings).

Again, this is only my opinion (that of a middle-aged guitar teacher in Vermont with only an Associate's Degree in English).

I believe I am officially flabbergasted.

Agreed on all counts, including the wording. Thank you.

[Tsaraslondon]

It's only my opinion, but certainly Goethe and Dostoevsky deserve mention very much in the same breath as Shakespeare. In fact, I'd have to put Dostoevsky's work on the same level of psychological insight... perhaps even more so. I'd also easily throw in Hemingway and Poe as well. Works like Norman Mailer's Naked and the Dead and William Styron's Sophie's Choice are comparable to anything W.S. wrote.

Finally, though Nietzsche was not on the literary level of any of the above, his Thus Spoke Zarathustra is a literary exposition which has staggeringly broader and more profound psychological ramifications than perhaps any other writer in the past 500 years (conservative estimation). I would also like to assert that, in terms of modern applicability( especially in the West), it's possible that no other writer has had more influence than Nietzsche (this most certainly includes Freud, whom borrowed liberally from his writings).

Again, this is only my opinion (that of a middle-aged guitar teacher in Vermont with only an Associate's Degree in English).

I do not dispute any of the above. But I do think this has taken us all along way from the point. In this discussion, Shakespeare was being used as a yardstick, as a figure generally and popularly considered to be one of the greatest in literature. The poster (Marvin, I think) could quite as easily have used any of the writers you mentioned, but his point may not have been as clear to non literary contributors.

[Haffner]

I do not dispute any of the above. But I do think this has taken us all along way from the point. .

You are right, and thanks for pointing it out where I strayed.

[max]

Oh good, Max. Wouldn't want to think we had a case of the pot calling the kettle black here. 

Don't push it Larry!

[Renfield]

You are right, and thanks for pointing it out where I strayed.

If I might be allowed to disagree here, though I do agree with Tsaraslondon's main point, I also consider your above post one of the most "valuable" in this thread, so far. Between a half-serious surface-skimming post on the topic at hand, and a serious opinion on a matter to which the initial discussion has led, my preference is for the latter.

Especially for a post as well-written as yours was.

[max]

What! No mention of the Classic Greeks?

[Renfield]

What! No mention of the Classic Greeks?

I'd say theirs is a slightly different medium than that of the various aformentioned authors. Not to mention a dead language, which makes things a bit more complicated...

[Haffner]

If I might be allowed to disagree here, though I do agree with Tsaraslondon's main point, I also consider your above post one of the most "valuable" in this thread, so far. Between a half-serious surface-skimming post on the topic at hand, and a serious opinion on a matter to which the initial discussion has led, my preference is for the latter.

Especially for a post as well-written as yours was.

You are very kind, thank you R. And I can see how valid your point is.

[Haffner]

I think it might bear mentioning that I, too, am often devastated by Shakespeare at his best. I wasn't really refuting what Larry wrote, I just experienced much of the same devastation reading Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, Spengler, Ibsen (staggering achievements, his),Poe, Hemingway, Faulkner, Flannery O' Connor, O'Neill and others. I'm not capable of and would never dream of trying to usurp the incredible achievements of William Shakespeare.

Please forgive me for still being at least partly OT, but the Mozart/DaPonte operas, Verdi's middle period, Madame Butterfly, and the majority of Wagner's mid-to-later works tend to trump much of W.S.'s work as well for me at least.

Of course, Romeo and Juliet springs to mind and makes me hesitate before pushing the "post" button...





_^there

[marvinbrown]

  I figured I'd bring this thread back on course.  Yesterday I pulled out the Levine MET Ring and watched Das Reingold.  I had not heard the Ring in over a month and it was refreshing to hear my favorite composer's masterpeice once more:  The following are some of the many moments in Das Reingold that put a smile on my face:

 
   One of the finest moments: The dark music as Alberich summons the Nibelungen to gather the gold under the spell of the Ring.  This occurs perhaps twice but most notably: when Wotan and Loge force Alberich (now caught in a net, as per the MET production) to gather Alberich's gold for them.   

   Other great moments:
  1) The Rheinmaidens tribute to the Rheingold (those three chords that ring out at the beginning of the opera and finally at the end as Wotan and the Gods return to Valhalla)
  2)The music as Alberich transforms into a dragon first and then a frog later under the conniving requests of Loge.  I strangely detected the LEITMOTIF of Fafner later to be heard in Siegfried, as Alberich appears as a dragon.


  What are your favorite moments from Das Rheingold? or the complete Ring for that matter?  I will be watching Die Walkure and Siegfried later this week.  I find it usefull to know which moments other listener's enjoy so as to look out for them.

  marvin
 
 

[Haffner]

  I figured I'd bring this thread back on course.  Yesterday I pulled out the Levine MET Ring and watched Das Reingold.  I had not heard the Ring in over a month and it was refreshing to hear my favorite composer's masterpeice once more:  The following are some of the many moments in Das Reingold that put a smile on my face:

 
   One of the finest moments: The dark music as Alberich summons the Nibelungen to gather the gold under the spell of the Ring.  This occurs perhaps twice but most notably: when Wotan and Loge force Alberich (now caught in a net, as per the MET production) to gather Alberich's gold for them.   

   Other great moments:
  1) The Rheinmaidens tribute to the Rheingold (those three chords that ring out at the beginning of the opera and finally at the end as Wotan and the Gods return to Valhalla)
  2)The music as Alberich transforms into a dragon first and then a frog later under the conniving requests of Loge.  I strangely detected the LEITMOTIF of Fafner later to be heard in Siegfried, as Alberich appears as a dragon.


  What are your favorite moments from Das Rheingold? or the complete Ring for that matter?  I will be watching Die Walkure and Siegfried later this week.  I find it usefull to know which moments other listener's enjoy so as to look out for them.

  marvin
 
 

You listed most of my favorites, Marvin. But even though I altogether wasn't thrilled with Siegfried and Brunnhilde in this interpretation, I really loved the finale of Gotterdamerung, and I thought Salminen was terrific throughout the entire production.

[Anne]

I love the last half of the 3rd act of Die Walkure where Wotan has to put Brunnhilde to sleep to await a human husband.  As he kisses her, her godliness disappears forever.  It is a time for tears if ever there was one.  At the minimum there's a huge lump in the throat.  The orchestra in those moments is so gorgeous!

[marvinbrown]

I love the last half of the 3rd act of Die Walkure where Wotan has to put Brunnhilde to sleep to await a human husband.  As he kisses her, her godliness disappears forever.  It is a time for tears if ever there was one.  At the minimum there's a huge lump in the throat.  The orchestra in those moments is so gorgeous!

  Yes Anne the 3rd Act of Die Walkure that features the exchange between Brunhilde and Wotan is quite moving.  Wotan is at first resolved to severely punish his daughter for disobeying him, his anger borders on rage yet his heart eventually fills with compassion which leads to the scene that as you describe above......a heartfelt magical moment and transformation indeed.

  marvin