What, in no uncertain terms, is "bad" orchestration?

[False_Dmitry]

You have some nerve, to refer that one of the most beloved and reverred orchestral composers, Bruckner, as a 'bad' orchestrator.

Oddly enough Mr Hanslick shared my opinions.  I suppose "he had some nerve" as well?  ROFL!!!!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Mendelssohn fans, I would assume

Although I don't think Anton would have come out like a second Felix--he didn't seem to have the lightness of touch.

Occasionally he did. Think of the trio section to the scherzo of the 9th Symphony.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Oddly enough Mr Hanslick shared my opinions.  I suppose "he had some nerve" as well?  ROFL!!!!

Whether he had nerve or not is immaterial. Hanslick was very much of his time, a partisan in the Brahms vs. Wagner/Bruckner camp, and none of us is required in 2010 to latch on to his opinions. More pertinent is Sir Donald Tovey's remark (from his essay on the Bruckner 4th):

"[Bruckner's] orchestration is often said to be influenced by the organ. But that is because it often sounds like an organ. And it could not sound thus unless it were completely free from the mistakes of the organ-loft composer. The scores bristle (as Weingartner says) with abnormalities, but the quintessence of orchestral quality is manifest in every line."

[greg]

Oh dear, your artistic passion is not sufficient to overcome the barrier of not having the sort of paper you want.     Beethoven, on the other hand composed despite being deaf.

You know that was 2 1/2 years ago, right? I don't even remember writing that.

(i have my big book of staff paper right on top of my keyboard at all times and write down ideas every day)

[BMW]

The woodwind are perfectly adequate on their own.  There is absolutely no need for the organ at this point in the work, other than to add a loud and unpleasant noise.  Organs don't belong in orchestras anyhow.

How are woodwinds adequate on their own if what Bruckner wanted was the sound of woodwinds and organ?  To decide that an aspect of Bruckner's orchestration is "pointless" wouldn't one have to know what his true aim was?  Have you spoken with him lately?   
And can anyone listen to this (among other pieces) and say that the organ has no place with orchestra?!?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYM54vhLYTU
(not pushing for Rattle here, his was just the first that came up on a YouTube search  )

Oddly enough Mr Hanslick shared my opinions.  I suppose "he had some nerve" as well?  ROFL!!!!

I pray that adherence to the dogma of Hanslick does not lead you to reject out of ignorance much of the music he dismissed for extramusical reasons.

[Renfield]

The sheer amount of agendas and pointless (albeit highbrow) name-calling in this thread is of fairly Late Romantic proportions in its own right.

I think the mention of Eduard Hanslick was, inadvertently, very apt.


Returning to the OT, I could see at least two ways of deciding an instance of orchestration is bad: either you compile a set of rules to compare it against, with the inherent problem of rejecting unconventional but effective orchestrations, or you rely on listener's intuition.

And since I am myself too partisan to accurately represent (let alone support) the latter, I would be happy to conclude orchestration is simply not something assessed independently of the formal qualities of a piece of music, nor outside the frame of a listener, vs. a score.

(Which would permit pronouncements of pointlessness, as there would be a sum of the individual parts, such as to indicate a point.)

[jowcol]

Well, I've actually tried both Finale and Sibelius since then (please don't ask how I obtain them)  . Although I used to have a bias for Finale, after actually trying both of them out, I much prefer Sibelius. It just seems more straightforward and easier to use.


(though I haven't gotten around to using both extensively)

FWIW-- if you want a fairly full featured, inexepensive tool, I'd suggest getting Melody Assistant (25$ or 20 Euros) and upgrade the sound generation capability with Gold Base (same cost).   It's not the slickest interface, but it has a lot of features for what it costs. 

http://www.myriad-online.com/en/products/melody.htm


(ANd if you are a real geek, it has a programmable scripting language.  I've always wanted to write a Markovian generator for Riley's In C)

Someone quoted Stravinksy's line about how the best orchestration isn't noticed.  I wish I had the Fisk's Composers on Music with me, but I also remember him saying that the people know as the best orchestrators (e.g., Rimsky Korsakov) were not the best composers.   

Of course, the same book has a quote by Rimsky that said that orchestration was the heart of composition.


Both points have some validity to them-- there are some composers I love for their skills in orchestral color  (Respighi, anyone?) , while others can be pretty colorless, and convince you solely through structure (Robert Simpson?)

[False_Dmitry]

How are woodwinds adequate on their own if what Bruckner wanted was the sound of woodwinds and organ? 

Bruckner was himself - by his own admission - an incompetent conductor (hardly a recommendation for his orchestration in itself), and usually preferred to hire a professional conductor to perform his works.  However, many conductors saw his scores and refused. 

Frankly he wrote the organ part out of vanity,  so that he would be involved in the performance himself.  It contributes nothing to the work, and is often omitted in performance.

[Renfield]

Bruckner was himself - by his own admission - an incompetent conductor (hardly a recommendation for his orchestration in itself), and usually preferred to hire a professional conductor to perform his works.  However, many conductors saw his scores and refused. 

Frankly he wrote the organ part out of vanity,  so that he would be involved in the performance himself.  It contributes nothing to the work, and is often omitted in performance.

With the important proviso that my comment about agendas was directed at almost all of the participants in the debate, and so was neither personal, nor an indirect swipe at you, may I ask if you like Anton Bruckner's work, as well as Anton Bruckner?

Your language gives the impression that this might be a pertinent question to ask. And it's fair enough, of course, either way; but I think the answers should be made clear, before any discussion on the objective (?) quality of any part of his output.

(And yes, liking the man shouldn't matter, but as someone who enjoys both Richard Wagner's music and Herbert von Karajan's work, I've had it ingrained in me the hard way that this is far from obvious; so we might as well cover that, too. )

[False_Dmitry]

Your language gives the impression that this might be a pertinent question to ask.

Actually this is a discussion about orchestration, good & bad.  I realise it would cheer your day to stick pins in my effigy, but it's not pertinent to this discussion.  All we've heard from Bruckner's defenders is that he's a "revererred" (sic) composer, and that "I have a nerve".  No-one has addressed the issues.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Bruckner was himself - by his own admission - an incompetent conductor (hardly a recommendation for his orchestration in itself), and usually preferred to hire a professional conductor to perform his works.  However, many conductors saw his scores and refused. 

Frankly he wrote the organ part out of vanity,  so that he would be involved in the performance himself.  It contributes nothing to the work, and is often omitted in performance.

There is also a totally superfluous organ part in the Beethoven Missa Solemnis which is always omitted in concert performance and recordings. It was obviously included solely in case the work was to be performed liturgically (an obvious chimera in itself).

[(poco) Sforzando]

Actually this is a discussion about orchestration, good & bad.  I realise it would cheer your day to stick pins in my effigy, but it's not pertinent to this discussion.  All we've heard from Bruckner's defenders is that he's a "revererred" (sic) composer, and that "I have a nerve".  No-one has addressed the issues.

Actually several of us have, but no matter.

[Renfield]

Actually this is a discussion about orchestration, good & bad.  I realise it would cheer your day to stick pins in my effigy, but it's not pertinent to this discussion.  All we've heard from Bruckner's defenders is that he's a "revererred" (sic) composer, and that "I have a nerve".  No-one has addressed the issues.

With all due respect, I would be happier if you would read my entire post, concerning whom I care to stick pins in, or indeed don't. I thoroughly disagree with the manner and (extra-musical) content of almost all the opinions expressed above, except Sforzando's.

But that aside (especially as I have little knowledge of music theory to support a claim for or against a certain affectation in the way composer X orchestrated their kazoo concerto), it is not unreasonable to assume that if you don't like Bruckner, then you might be less inclined to accept his creative choices than if you did. And vice-versa. Much like how Karl is wont to completely dismiss Dittersdorf, for example, in the negative case.

So this is not just about you. But you began by making a contentious point, using strongly emotive language; and as someone following this discussion, I will thus politely insist on my request for clarification on your views.


I should add, I do like Bruckner's music, and also feel sympathy for the man, whom I also, however, acknowledge to have been a decidedly disturbed individual. To me, this does not matter enough to cite his arrogance in the context of his orchestration; but to you it apparently does.

This is hardly 'not pertinent to this discussion', is it?

[abidoful]

Bruckner was himself - by his own admission - an incompetent conductor (hardly a recommendation for his orchestration in itself)

A fact of not being a professional conductor does not mean that one is incapable of writing good orchestral music.
What about Debussy then? Or Ravel? I think Debussy was not particularly good conductor and Ravel I think never conducted.
Moreover what about  your assertion when applied  to other instances?Good piano music is only written by good pianists? What about Szymanowski then? Or Ravel?

Or what about  cello works? Rachmaninoff or Chopin were hardly cellist's  and still they wrote magnifiscent cello sonatas.

[Sydney Grew]

Schubert - a little too fond of the old trombone what!

[BMW]

(And yes, liking the man shouldn't matter, but as someone who enjoys both Richard Wagner's music and Herbert von Karajan's work, I've had it ingrained in me the hard way that this is far from obvious; so we might as well cover that, too. )

[karlhenning]

There are works, and the Chopin may be in that category, where the orchestration is not particularly remarkable and the value of the piece is mainly in other aspects of the music.  That doesn't make it bad orchestration.

QFT

[drogulus]

There is also a totally superfluous organ part in the Beethoven Missa Solemnis which is always omitted in concert performance and recordings. It was obviously included solely in case the work was to be performed liturgically (an obvious chimera in itself).

     Whoa! Are you sure it's always omitted? I thought I heard organ pedal on the Klemperer/EMI recording. Does anyone know it well enough to confirm this? Check out the Gloria in excelsis Deo.

[(poco) Sforzando]

     Whoa! Are you sure it's always omitted? I thought I heard organ pedal on the Klemperer/EMI recording. Does anyone know it well enough to confirm this? Check out the Gloria in excelsis Deo.

OK, OK, maybe it's used sometimes. Obviously I haven't heard every performance/recording. But it is totally superfluous, doing nothing more at any time than doubling lines covered elsewhere in the texture.

[karlhenning]

There is also a totally superfluous organ part in the Beethoven Missa Solemnis which is always omitted in concert performance and recordings. It was obviously included solely in case the work was to be performed liturgically (an obvious chimera in itself).

Or, rather, in a church (perhaps a retro-fit idea . . . were there concert performances in churches in Beethoven's day?)

I shouldn't necessarily take even that as a 'flaw' in Beethoven's scoring.  If he had written an essential, distinct organ part, the piece would have been ineligible for performance in concert halls (here again I am retro-speculating a bit . . . I am guessing that the practice of outfitting German concert halls with pipe organs largely post-dates Beethoven).