Zinman's Beethoven

[Mark]

I'd like to ask what you think of David Zinman's way with the music of Herr Beethoven. Not just his much-debated (here and elsewhere) symphony cycle, but the piano concerti, septet, triple concerto, et al.

I enquire because I'm currently traversing the monster 60-CD Sony BMG Masterworks set of Beethoven's Masterpieces, which contains all of the above-mentioned recordings with Zinman. I'm utterly convinced by his takes on the piano concerti with Bronfman (with the regrettable exception of the Fifth Piano Concerto, which I think Bronfman pulls somewhat out of shape in the beautiful central movement - so, not a fault of Zinman's, per se), and my initial listening to the symphonies tells me that here is an interpreter willing to do things differently. Good, say I.

While I wasn't too impressed by the first movement and a half of the 'Eroica' Symphony, the remainder persuaded me and revealed textures and nuances unheard by me before. I was left similarly cold by the first movement of the Ninth Symphony; but by the work's close, I was at such a pitch that I could've applauded quite loudly. His reintroduction of that deliberate pause in the final movement threw me slightly, but I think it works well in the context of the work as a whole.

I've since explored two more of the symphonies: Nos. 5 & 6. Zinman makes a compelling case for each, but particularly for the Fifth Symphony. Never have I heard its second movement delivered so well, so articulately and with a pace that feels absolutely on the money. As for that tremendous sweep from third to final movement, Zinman powers up the Tonhalle Orchestra to give a quite thrilling start to the work's finale. His take on the Sixth Symphony begins well, but I think he lets the pace slacken just a tad too much by the time he reaches the final movement. Disappointing, but he nonetheless commands some wonderful playing.

So, it's so far been a mixed bag for me with Zinman and Beethoven. Any thoughts you care to share on this? Like him in Ludwig, or loathe him?

[longears]

Like.  In fact, I think I'll listen to one now!

[hornteacher]

Well.......I very much enjoy his Piano Concerto Cycle with Bronfman especially the 3rd and 4th PC.

I haven't heard much of his symphony cycle but I haven't been avoiding them.  I just haven't gotten around to it yet.  The price is nice though.

May I state at this point though that one of my all time favorite recordings is Hilary's account of the Beethoven Violin Concerto with Zinman (paired with the Bernstein Serenade, also well performed by all concerned).

So in my book, he's done good.

[DavidW]

To compliment Horn Teacher, I have heard the symphony recordings, the Missa Solemnis and nothing else of Zinman's Beethoven.  I like his style.  Fast, transparent blah blah whatever he's no Blomstedt and Blomstedt is my favorite, but I still like him.  Mark try Zinman in Schumann he's not quite as fast and crazy there.

It's funny I liked that Zinman didn't go too nuts on the 6th, alot of HIPsters I think just ruin the 6th by taking it too fast.

[hornteacher]

It's funny I liked that Zinman didn't go too nuts on the 6th, alot of HIPsters I think just ruin the 6th by taking it too fast.

Wow, who would want to go fast on something called the "Pastoral"?

[Larry Rinkel]

Can't stand him. I've gotten rid of all the Zinman Beethoven I've bought, which is only a few symphonies and the Missa. It's Beethoven Lite, with no sense of weighting, gravitas, or phrasing. And the gratuitous ornamentation is a continual irritant.

[BorisG]

Semi-HIP Beethoven is not for me, so I have not spent much time with Zinman's. What I have heard I think has been done better by others in the semi-HIP movement.

I found Zinman rushing through passages, providing little insight. Was this because of slack interpretation, or crammed concert and recording scheduling? Maybe a little of both, as we have often heard with Gergiev.

Zinman's currently in the midst of Mahler. All done in a year's time? Anything close to that time frame would be utterly ridiculous.

I should not conclude on a negative Tonhalle/Zinman note, so I will (briefly going off topic) recommend their R. Strauss Sinfonia Domestica and Parergon. Insights galore for these works.

[Larry Rinkel]

Wow, who would want to go fast on something called the "Pastoral"?

I kid you not: the best single Pastoral I know is conducted by Bystrik Rezucha, with a Slovak orchestra on an impossibly cheap CD you can find at Amazon. Not HIP at all, but done with rare elegance and attention to detail - and a first movement that may sound faster than most, but which at 60 = half note is actually slower than Beethoven's 68. "Happy feelings on arriving in the country."

[Tyson]

I think he's very good in the concerto's, but not particularly good in the symphonies.  Gardiner is in a similar style, but 1000x better in interpretive insight and execution.

[Mark]

Well.......I very much enjoy his Piano Concerto Cycle with Bronfman especially the 3rd and 4th PC.

Amen to that.

... he's no Blomstedt and Blomstedt is my favorite

I like Blomstedt, too. A shame about the boxy acoustic in his cycle ... but a terrific Fifth and thrilling Ninth.

It's funny I liked that Zinman didn't go too nuts on the 6th, alot of HIPsters I think just ruin the 6th by taking it too fast.

Wow, who would want to go fast on something called the "Pastoral"?

I kid you not: the best single Pastoral I know is conducted by Bystrik Rezucha, with a Slovak orchestra on an impossibly cheap CD you can find at Amazon. Not HIP at all, but done with rare elegance and attention to detail - and a first movement that may sound faster than most, but which at 60 = half note is actually slower than Beethoven's 68. "Happy feelings on arriving in the country."

For me, Colin Davis with the Staatskapelle Dresden are untouchable in the Sixth (one dodgy wrong note - I think - aside in the second movement).

[Harry]

In my view there is too much emphasis on the speeds Zinman is using, and the so called lightweight sound the Tonhalle Orchestra produces. As if that would be wrong. Lets not forget that all these things are highly personal, and Zinman made the choice to do it in the way you hear it. Fast speeds, thinned out orchestra, and that works fine for me. The Schumann is done in the same way for the first two symphonies, 3 & 4 are somewhat tamed down.
But to hear all the detail emerging from such a approach is amazing no less.
I think the Beethoven set one of the best around.

[Mark]

And the gratuitous ornamentation is a continual irritant.

Hmm ... I've heard flourishes here and there, some agreeable, some unexpected. Irritating? Different is all I'd say. Can that be seen as quite refreshing, given how many cycles are out there (and still being released)?

In my view there is too much emphasis on the speeds Zinman is using, and the so called lightweight sound the Tonhalle Orchestra produces.

Since Mackerras' cycle, I've become used to the faster speeds at which Beethoven's symphonies are often played these days. As to the Tonhalle's tone and weight, I rather like it. Once again, the word 'refreshing' springs to mind: I've heard plenty of recordings of this great cycle where the orchestra is big, dark and serious - just try Abbado's first cycle on DG with the VPO (a contrasting set which I love, incidentally).

[Grazioso]

Wow, who would want to go fast on something called the "Pastoral"?

Hey, stuff moves fast in the country, too: ever watch a buck at full run or a hawk on the chase or a city-dweller running from a harmless snake? 

[Larry Rinkel]

In my view there is too much emphasis on the speeds Zinman is using, and the so called lightweight sound the Tonhalle Orchestra produces. As if that would be wrong. Lets not forget that all these things are highly personal, and Zinman made the choice to do it in the way you hear it. Fast speeds, thinned out orchestra, and that works fine for me. The Schumann is done in the same way for the first two symphonies, 3 & 4 are somewhat tamed down.
But to hear all the detail emerging from such a approach is amazing no less.
I think the Beethoven set one of the best around.

The question was what people thought of this conductor's Beethoven. I don't like it. Speeds and textures are only part of what I dislike; the unnecessary ornamentation and the auto-pilot phrasing are another. There are enough better choices as to make this set not worth the bother, in my opinion.

[Bonehelm]

I kid you not: the best single Pastoral I know is conducted by Bystrik Rezucha, with a Slovak orchestra on an impossibly cheap CD you can find at Amazon. Not HIP at all, but done with rare elegance and attention to detail - and a first movement that may sound faster than most, but which at 60 = half note is actually slower than Beethoven's 68. "Happy feelings on arriving in the country."

The best pastoral I've heard is by Slovak Philarmonic on Naxos...you know the one that has its 1st movement compiled on the Best of Beethoven cd on the same label.

[Larry Rinkel]

The best pastoral I've heard is by Slovak Philarmonic on Naxos...you know the one that has its 1st movement compiled on the Best of Beethoven cd on the same label.

I don't know if that's the same one. The one I refer to is conducted by Rezucha (apparently a real name, see link below) and is coupled with a stodgy #8 done by someone else. The orchestra is the Slovakia Philharmonic. Since Amazon has copies from $.036, you can't lose. There's some good music-making coming out of Eastern Europe.

http://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystr%C3%ADk_Re%C5%BEucha

[Mark]

Now unfolding in my ears is Zinman's take on the Seventh Symphony. Of all the versions I've heard (about ten in all), this one really tries to be different. I expected a rapid first movement - I got something more measured: light, tame and unremarkable in its overall shaping, yet with a clarity of textures I'm unused to. Then came the second movement, and extremes of dynamics which I was also unprepared for, though which were in no way unpleasant. Now at last, the speed I'd expected from the start, with a swift third movement. Lord alone knows what the finale will bring ...

[Mark]

Well, the finale of the Seventh wasn't much to write home about ... but the first two movements of his Eighth took my breath away. Wasn't ready for the pace and initially thought, 'Y'know, I don't like this.' But the more I think about it, I could really become a fan of this Eighth.

[Renfield]

Zinman's Beethoven is indeed somewhat irritating, on occasion. But the rest of the time, it's rather enjoyable; and it definitely has its revelatory moments.

Still, I'd prefer it if he didn't "embroider" the score with his extra changes, based on "solid musicological principles" as they might be...

(Incidentally, since the Pastoral is apparently under discussion as well, have you listened carefully to Karajan's last recording of it? It's the one that opened my own eyes to the sheer brilliance of that symphony!)

[Brian]

I don't know if that's the same one. The one I refer to is conducted by Rezucha (apparently a real name, see link below) and is coupled with a stodgy #8 done by someone else. The orchestra is the Slovakia Philharmonic. Since Amazon has copies from $.036, you can't lose. There's some good music-making coming out of Eastern Europe.

http://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystr%C3%ADk_Re%C5%BEucha

Did you mean $3.50? Maybe not, that one is coupled with the Appassionata sonata (a perverse juxtaposition if I've ever heard one). EDIT: Never mind, found the other disc. Is "Henry Adolph" Rezucha's nom de plume (or baton)?

As far as the original question - who would conduct the Pastoral quickly - the answer is:

H v K
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