Elgar's Hillside

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM

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Irons

I would not like to choose. The violin concerto has enjoyed greater advocacy down the years. From the premiere recording with boy Menuhin and Elgar himself and the first performance, again with the composer and Kreisler. Also international "stars" for example Heifetz  made recordings. The lineage of the Cello Concerto until du Pré is not up to that level, Casals did record the work but I have not heard it.

Rostropovich was asked why he never played the Elgar, he replied "My pupil Jacqueline du Pré, played it much better then I".   
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Irons on May 20, 2019, 12:04:40 AM
I would not like to choose. The violin concerto has enjoyed greater advocacy down the years. From the premiere recording with boy Menuhin and Elgar himself and the first performance, again with the composer and Kreisler. Also international "stars" for example Heifetz  made recordings. The lineage of the Cello Concerto until du Pré is not up to that level, Casals did record the work but I have not heard it.

Rostropovich was asked why he never played the Elgar, he replied "My pupil Jacqueline du Pré, played it much better then I".

According to Wiki this is the pre-Du Pre discography......

Beatrice Harrison   London Symphony Orchestra   Sir Edward Elgar   HMV   1928
W H Squire   Hallé Orchestra   Sir Hamilton Harty   Columbia   1930
Pablo Casals   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Adrian Boult   EMI   1945
Anthony Pini   London Philharmonic Orchestra   Eduard van Beinum   Decca   1950
Paul Tortelier   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Malcolm Sargent   EMI   1954
André Navarra   Hallé Orchestra   Sir John Barbirolli   Pye   1957
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Natan Rakhlin   Revelation   1958[2]
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Gennadi Rozhdestvensky   Russiandisc   1964[3]

which includes 2 (non studio) by Rostropovitch.... I assume he meant he didn't play it after Du Pre recorded it.  The Casals is technically pretty ropey........

Biffo

Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 20, 2019, 01:48:54 AM
According to Wiki this is the pre-Du Pre discography......

Beatrice Harrison   London Symphony Orchestra   Sir Edward Elgar   HMV   1928
W H Squire   Hallé Orchestra   Sir Hamilton Harty   Columbia   1930
Pablo Casals   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Adrian Boult   EMI   1945
Anthony Pini   London Philharmonic Orchestra   Eduard van Beinum   Decca   1950
Paul Tortelier   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Malcolm Sargent   EMI   1954
André Navarra   Hallé Orchestra   Sir John Barbirolli   Pye   1957
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Natan Rakhlin   Revelation   1958[2]
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Gennadi Rozhdestvensky   Russiandisc   1964[3]

Navarra/Barbirolli is my favourite though I have it on the Testament label

which includes 2 (non studio) by Rostropovitch.... I assume he meant he didn't play it after Du Pre recorded it.  The Casals is technically pretty ropey........

Irons

Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 20, 2019, 01:48:54 AM
According to Wiki this is the pre-Du Pre discography......

Beatrice Harrison   London Symphony Orchestra   Sir Edward Elgar   HMV   1928
W H Squire   Hallé Orchestra   Sir Hamilton Harty   Columbia   1930
Pablo Casals   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Adrian Boult   EMI   1945
Anthony Pini   London Philharmonic Orchestra   Eduard van Beinum   Decca   1950
Paul Tortelier   BBC Symphony Orchestra   Sir Malcolm Sargent   EMI   1954
André Navarra   Hallé Orchestra   Sir John Barbirolli   Pye   1957
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Natan Rakhlin   Revelation   1958[2]
Mstislav Rostropovich   Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra   Gennadi Rozhdestvensky   Russiandisc   1964[3]

which includes 2 (non studio) by Rostropovitch.... I assume he meant he didn't play it after Du Pre recorded it.  The Casals is technically pretty ropey........

I was going to mention the Pini recording as it is very good. Tortelier recorded it again with Boult which was I think around the same time, or just after du Pré.

You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Irons

Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 18, 2019, 11:06:40 AM
not really...... the Du Pre recording was made in the mid 60's.... the Elgar Cello concerto's status was firmly established in the nearly 50 years prior to that.

Walton is one of my most favourite composers... of the 3 string concerti the cello concerto is often cited (I think rightly) as the weakest.  I like it but the Elgar is without a shadow of doubt the finer work.  The Finzi runs neither close.  The disdain mentioned here is as much bound up with its popularity as its quality.

A good reason as any to journey through British cello concertos. I commenced last night with the Walton, a bit like comparing apples with oranges but yes, the Elgar without a doubt the finer concerto. Piatigorsky, the dedicatee, gives a committed account and the recording from the "golden age" RCA is superb. I intend to follow up with Moeran and Finzi.

You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

André

From the WAYLT thread:

Quote


Elgar's late oratorios were intended as the first two installments of a trilogy, but he abandoned the project after composing The Kingdom. He wanted The Apostles and The Kingdom to be played/heard on two consecutive days, or even on the same day, one in the afternoon, the other in the evening. They share many leitmotives, with a few new ones appearing in The Kingdom. And some characters appear in both (Mary, Mary Magdalene, Peter, John). Jesus and Judas appear only in The Apostles.

It took me many years to warm up to the beauty and subtlety of these works. The Dream of Gerontius in comparison has a more gripping story, with a very dramatic score. The music of the late oratorios is more contemplative, ecstatic, the pain and sorrow, the rapture and the elation not experienced 'in the flesh' as in Gerontius, but in the tranquillity of the soul.

Compared to the seminal recording of the work (Boult on EMI, 1974), the 1990 Chandos recording boasts a very wide dynamic range, beautiful playing and singing  and a slightly more direct manner. Not that this is plain in the wrong sense, but there's no denying the perfection of Boult's conception, his absolute mastery of tempi, of the ebb and flow of the piece. The 85 year old conductor takes 121 minutes to Hickox' 126, a small difference to be sure, but still an indication of a sligtly more flowing pace. It's swings and roundabouts when it comes to the soloists. I prefer Boult's John and Mary, Hickox' Judas and Peter. The Jesuses and Mary Magdalenes are equal - both superb. The last tableau (the Ascension) under Hickox is overwhelming in its power, a true cathartic ending to the work. The recording quality does make a difference here.

71 dB

Imo The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the best works Elgar ever wrote and I think appreciation of these works indicates understanding of the genius he was.

Compared to Gerontius these are sadly overlooked works, but it is what it is. Elgar is in no way the only composer with overlooked gems.
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#3147
Quote from: 71 dB on November 11, 2019, 01:29:45 PM
Imo The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the best works Elgar ever wrote and I think appreciation of these works indicates understanding of the genius he was.

Compared to Gerontius these are sadly overlooked works, but it is what it is. Elgar is in no way the only composer with overlooked gems.

I don't think much of The Apostles or The Kingdom but this doesn't mean I don't appreciate or understand how good his music is or could be. There are some good moments in both of those works, but, FWIW, I'm not really too fond of The Dream of Gerontius either. For me, it is Symphony No. 2, the Violin Sonata, Enigma Variations, Violin Concerto, The Music-Makers, Sea Pictures, and The Spirit of England that demonstrate his remarkable, singular compositional style and encapsulate the spirit of man himself.

Biffo

Andrè is very persuasive in his advocacy of The Apostles, he almost persuaded me but not enough. I heard the work many years ago conducted by Rozhdestvensky and remember mostly enjoying it. What put me off (and still does) was the 'oratorio' diction. Elgar told his publisher he didn't want Gerontius described as a 'sacred oratorio', he was writing something new. He was but then relapsed into the clichéd oratorio style for The Apostles and The Kingdom.

After the live performance I bought the Boult recordings of The Apostles and The Kingdom and listened to them just once. I have never felt drawn to try them again until the fairly recent issue of the Elder recording of The Apostles. It received so much glowing praise that I decided to try the Boult recording again to see if I got on any better with the work; I didn't, I barely lasted 30 minutes. However good the music I can't get past the text and its delivery.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 01:38:00 AM
Andrè is very persuasive in his advocacy of The Apostles, he almost persuaded me but not enough. I heard the work many years ago conducted by Rozhdestvensky and remember mostly enjoying it. What put me off (and still does) was the 'oratorio' diction. Elgar told his publisher he didn't want Gerontius described as a 'sacred oratorio', he was writing something new. He was but then relapsed into the clichéd oratorio style for The Apostles and The Kingdom.

After the live performance I bought the Boult recordings of The Apostles and The Kingdom and listened to them just once. I have never felt drawn to try them again until the fairly recent issue of the Elder recording of The Apostles. It received so much glowing praise that I decided to try the Boult recording again to see if I got on any better with the work; I didn't, I barely lasted 30 minutes. However good the music I can't get past the text and its delivery.

Biffo - I must admit that you put into words almost exactly my own reaction to these works.  I always feel a bit guilty that I don't like these works more (Boult's words that they are the very finest of Elgar ring in my ears) but there it is.  Perhaps one of these days it will "click" but I do have a nagging feeling that by the time Elgar wrote these works the 'grand oratorio' was a fading tradition.  I struggle with Schmidt's "Book of the 7 Seals" for much the same reason, likewise Dyson's Quo Vadis......

(I did rankle a bit at a previous post that implied you can't REALLY like/appreciate/understand Elgar unless you love these works!)

Biffo

Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 02:26:36 AM
Biffo - I must admit that you put into words almost exactly my own reaction to these works.  I always feel a bit guilty that I don't like these works more (Boult's words that they are the very finest of Elgar ring in my ears) but there it is.  Perhaps one of these days it will "click" but I do have a nagging feeling that by the time Elgar wrote these works the 'grand oratorio' was a fading tradition.  I struggle with Schmidt's "Book of the 7 Seals" for much the same reason, likewise Dyson's Quo Vadis......

(I did rankle a bit at a previous post that implied you can't REALLY like/appreciate/understand Elgar unless you love these works!)

I can't really say I like any of Elgar's choral works and I have given most of them a try.  I read fairly recently the opinion (can't remember whose) that Elgar was our greatest writer of orchestral music but had to spend his time writing oratorios because he had to earn a living and oratorios still dominated the British musical scene. From what I can remember from Jerrold Northrop Moore's biography Elgar didn't see it that way. Almost to the end of his life he was promising friends and his publisher the third part of his trilogy. I can't say I am disappointed he never even started it.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 03:00:42 AM
I can't really say I like any of Elgar's choral works and I have given most of them a try.  I read fairly recently the opinion (can't remember whose) that Elgar was our greatest writer of orchestral music but had to spend his time writing oratorios because he had to earn a living and oratorios still dominated the British musical scene. From what I can remember from Jerrold Northrop Moore's biography Elgar didn't see it that way. Almost to the end of his life he was promising friends and his publisher the third part of his trilogy. I can't say I am disappointed he never even started it.

Spirit of England is for me one of the GREAT choral works - power and concision as well as an highly emotive subject.  I like the Coronation Ode as well.  Doesn't outstay its welcome - fantastic open "Crown the King" and personally, in its original context, I find the setting of Land of Hope and Glory impressive.  The latter just suffers from too many post-Empire associations which I understand but don't bother me.

Biffo

Quote from: Roasted Swan on November 12, 2019, 03:12:01 AM
Spirit of England is for me one of the GREAT choral works - power and concision as well as an highly emotive subject.  I like the Coronation Ode as well.  Doesn't outstay its welcome - fantastic open "Crown the King" and personally, in its original context, I find the setting of Land of Hope and Glory impressive.  The latter just suffers from too many post-Empire associations which I understand but don't bother me.

Perhaps I will have to give The Spirit of England another try - I have the Hickox recording.

André

Quote from: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 03:00:42 AM
I can't really say I like any of Elgar's choral works and I have given most of them a try.  I read fairly recently the opinion (can't remember whose) that Elgar was our greatest writer of orchestral music but had to spend his time writing oratorios because he had to earn a living and oratorios still dominated the British musical scene. From what I can remember from Jerrold Northrop Moore's biography Elgar didn't see it that way. Almost to the end of his life he was promising friends and his publisher the third part of his trilogy. I can't say I am disappointed he never even started it.

In 1926, Elgar told VW that he stopped trying to compose the third part after having heard Sancta Civitas. « You did it for me », he said.

Biffo

Quote from: André on November 12, 2019, 04:47:42 AM
In 1926, Elgar told VW that he stopped trying to compose the third part after having heard Sancta Civitas. « You did it for me », he said.

It was very kind of Elgar to say that but by 1926 he had almost given up composing.  There was a late burst of activity but it didn't lead to any significant completed works. I can't help thinking that Elgar's projected work would have been more of the same (Apostles, Kingdom) rather than like RVW's compact treatment of the subject.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Biffo on November 12, 2019, 03:00:42 AM
I can't really say I like any of Elgar's choral works and I have given most of them a try.  I read fairly recently the opinion (can't remember whose) that Elgar was our greatest writer of orchestral music but had to spend his time writing oratorios because he had to earn a living and oratorios still dominated the British musical scene. From what I can remember from Jerrold Northrop Moore's biography Elgar didn't see it that way. Almost to the end of his life he was promising friends and his publisher the third part of his trilogy. I can't say I am disappointed he never even started it.

I think he's an incredible composer of orchestral music, but his chamber music was just as inspired and I do wish he composed more of it.

71 dB

I feel I am the only person alive in the World who thinks The Apostles and The Kingdom are incredible works. So much mystical "shimmering" quiet music and when the music gets loud my socks are spinning in my feet!  ;D

Somehow some music speaks to us while other music doesn't. For example, I get hardly anything from Janácek's Glagolitic Mass...
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Quote from: 71 dB on November 12, 2019, 09:50:02 AM
I feel I am the only person alive in the World who thinks The Apostles and The Kingdom are incredible works. So much mystical "shimmering" quiet music and when the music gets loud my socks are spinning in my feet!  ;D

Somehow some music speaks to us while other music doesn't. For example, I get hardly anything from Janácek's Glagolitic Mass...

That's interesting as I think Janáček's Glagolitic Mass is better than any choral work Elgar wrote. :) Oh, and as evidenced here, you're not the only person in the world who likes Elgar's oratorios. I don't like them because I think they're overlong and much of the musical material isn't memorable. We're all different and life's too short to worry about other people disliking music that we enjoy.

Herman

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 12, 2019, 08:04:22 AM
I think he's an incredible composer of orchestral music, but his chamber music was just as inspired and I do wish he composed more of it.

I love the violin sonata.
What's next, in terms of good chamber music?

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Herman on November 12, 2019, 11:24:25 AM
I love the violin sonata.
What's next, in terms of good chamber music?

Assuming you mean by Elgar - you ain't got much choice!  He wrote the 3 works; Violin Sonata/Piano Quintet/String Quartet with adjacent Opus Nos 82-84 with the Cello Concerto Op.85.  Anything else for chamber type ensembles is early/functional.  The rest of the violin and piano repertoire is very attractive but nothing with the scale or emotional sweep of the Sonata