Elgar's Hillside

[karlhenning]

Oh, sure, Ernie: throw me under the bus! 

[Guido]

     I'm not making any claims for TMM. Call it kitsch if you want, and it's certainly lesser Elgar. I like it anyway, because I have bad taste.      

I just found it horrendously dull and pointless - every piece he uses is made worse by the new arrangement... that said, I have only heard it live once, in King's college chapel. Maybe I should give it another listen when my 30 CD boxed set arrives! Is that much Elgar healthy for one person?

[71 dB]

I have only 2 performances of The Music Makers, Op. 69

Felicity Palmer / London Symphony Orchestra + Chorus / Richard Hickox / EMI

Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra / Simon Wright / Naxos

I prever the former but it's the first performance I heard of this work so maybe that's why.

The work itself isn't Elgar's best but I find it awesome nevertheless. It's pure Elgar magic!  0:)

[karlhenning]

Fair to call it a comparatively modest work . . . sort of a salon-choral work, maybe.  I enjoy it as a sort of 'autobiographical quodlibet'.  It's no Shostakovich Fifteenth, but, hey . . . .

[Hector]

I am surprised. Even though I really do like Elgar a lot, I think that piece is a right rag-bag. It seems to have little shape, a sort of suite of greatest hits.

I note the Ken Russell film gets short shrift. Pretty much regarded as a masterpiece of its kind elsewhere.

Mike

Agreed, but isn't it fun spotting where the quote is from?

There is always someone, somewhere ready and not-so-able to rubbish dear old Ken Russell but that drama-doc led to a revival of interest in the composer that prompted EMI to give us all those Barbirolli recordings!

His film was one of the first of its kind.

[Martin Lind]

As I now possess the Elgar box I would love to have some talk about the works included in this box.

For example I listened to Caractacus ( on two CDs) and I was not very much impressed, I didn't like that very much. I listened then to The Banner of St George and choral works and I found these better although not overwhelmed. A fourth CD with Orchestral Works and Marches was partly fine but sometimes a bit bombastic.

So lets talk about Elgar and his work, now I have this box and listen to it but always appreciate it, if one can talk about music and there are certainly some Elgarians who could guide me through this big box.

[71 dB]

For example I listened to Caractacus ( on two CDs) and I was not very much impressed, I didn't like that very much.

Caractacus isn't one of Elgar's best works but I still enjoy it very much. I have Hickox on Chandos. Can you tell what didn't you like about it?

I listened then to The Banner of St George and choral works and I found these better although not overwhelmed.

Again, these are not the greatest Elgar works. For me it's rare not to be overwhelmed by Elgar. Perhaps you are expecting too much? Music gives more when you relax and just let it reveal itself.

A fourth CD with Orchestral Works and Marches was partly fine but sometimes a bit bombastic.

Elgar's style is bombastic (he's not Debussy!  ) and marches are bombastic by nature so you should expect Elgar's marches be bombastic. To be honest, marches are among the least interesting works of Elgar. I don't listen to them that often. If I want to hear bombastic march music, Elgar is the man.  0:)

So lets talk about Elgar and his work, now I have this box and listen to it but always appreciate it, if one can talk about music and there are certainly some Elgarians who could guide me through this big box.

I don't know if I can guide you through that big box. I have about half of it as separate releases. I recommend this: Concentrate on one disc/work at the time and listen to it several times. Elgar's music tend to reveal itself better that way. Don't expect to be blown away. Elgar's music touches us in subtle and profound ways. I have always felt that Elgar's art is more than just music. It's some kind of "awareness" or "spirit" and the music is how it sounds. What you hear is the entrance to this mental state. Trust Elgar as a composer. Be a humble listener and you will be blown away. You should spend months going through the box or you are too fast. Patience!

[Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich]

Martin, have you already listened to the lovely Sospiri?

What's the solution of the Dorabella Cipher btw?

[drogulus]

Oh, sure, Ernie: throw me under the bus! 

     No, Karl, you like it because you have good taste. 

     Caractacus is undone by the usual Elgar problems, an inadequate text with a downright embarrassing (patriotic bluster) ending which I understand was cut from some performances.

     

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I'll stick my neck out and say - I love Elgar's Second. The First is wonderful, but the Second is deeper. I think it's a rather tragic work. In the first movement (Allegro vivace e nobilmente) I don't hear imperialist, Edwardian pomp at all, but anxiety and nervousness. The motto of the work is Shelley's line 'Rarely comest thou, spirit of Delight', and you (I) can hear the strenuous striving for it - or a strenuous trying to hold on to it - all through the first movement. The second movement, Larghetto, is melancholy and yearning, whereas the Rondo: Presto third movement seems to unleash, in the Trio, all the pent-up anger and frustration. In the final movement, Moderato and maestoso, Elgar seems to attain some sort of serenity or resignation, with the opening gesture of the work dissolving before our ears. It is here where Elgar's Second indeed resembles Brahms's Third, where the same thing occurs in its final bars.

In defense of Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance marches: it is wrong to project our own disillusioned experiences and assumptions into the past. Elgar wrote most of his marches before WWI. They are ceremonial, patriotic works like many many other composers in those days wrote (e.g. Sousa, Johann Strauss, Wagner...) Elgar was shocked and disgusted by the First World War. His marches are not celebrations of carnage.

[Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich]

Seems like I really have to listen to his Symphonies soon.

In defense of Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance marches: it is wrong to project our own disillusioned experiences and assumptions into the past. Elgar wrote most of his marches before WWI. They are ceremonial, patriotic works like many many other composers in those days wrote (e.g. Sousa, Johann Strauss, Wagner...) Elgar was shocked and disgusted by the First World War. His marches are not celebrations of carnage.

I couldn't care less, for the judgement about his music it is irrelevant if he was shocked by war or not. Even if he was [insert evil/politically incorrect attributes here]. There's his music, me, and my decision, if it could bring joy to my life. As easy as that. Period. The decision has been made: It does.

[drogulus]

I'll stick my neck out and say - I love Elgar's Second. The First is wonderful, but the Second is deeper. I think it's a rather tragic work. In the first movement (Allegro vivace e nobilmente) I don't hear imperialist, Edwardian pomp at all, but anxiety and nervousness. The motto of the work is Shelley's line 'Rarely comest thou, spirit of Delight', and you (I) can hear the strenuous striving for it - or a strenuous trying to hold on to it - all through the first movement. The second movement, Larghetto, is melancholy and yearning, whereas the Rondo: Presto third movement seems to unleash, in the Trio, all the pent-up anger and frustration. In the final movement, Moderato and maestoso, Elgar seems to attain some sort of serenity or resignation, with the opening gesture of the work dissolving before our ears. It is here where Elgar's Second indeed resembles Brahms's Third, where the same thing occurs in its final bars.

    There are other resemblances, such as the theme at the start of the 4th movement, as well as a slight resemblance at the start of the first movement.

    The inner movements of the Elgar 2nd are remarkable. You need to listen to them a few times to absorb all they have to offer. I get the idea that the length of this symphony combined with a certain impatience with Elgar (you think you know what he's about) causes people to skate over some of the subtleties. This could be true of any composer but particularly so in a long work like this.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I couldn't care less, for the judgement about his music it is irrelevant if he was shocked by war or not. Even if he was [insert evil/politically incorrect attributes here]. There's his music, me, and my decision, if it could bring joy to my life. As easy as that. Period. The decision has been made: It does.

I'm glad to hear it. But the question of art and morality is interesting. And this is what I tried to address.

[Martin Lind]

I don't know if I can guide you through that big box. I have about half of it as separate releases. I recommend this: Concentrate on one disc/work at the time and listen to it several times. Elgar's music tend to reveal itself better that way. Don't expect to be blown away. Elgar's music touches us in subtle and profound ways. I have always felt that Elgar's art is more than just music. It's some kind of "awareness" or "spirit" and the music is how it sounds. What you hear is the entrance to this mental state. Trust Elgar as a composer. Be a humble listener and you will be blown away. You should spend months going through the box or you are too fast. Patience!

Thank you for your advice. I will be patient, I confess. Still I say that there were works of Elgar which immidiatly or nearly imidiately stunned me. Some of these new works not. But I will be patient.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

 There are other resemblances, such as the theme at the start of the 4th movement, as well as a slight resemblance at the start of the first movement.

You're absolutely right.

[knight66]

Agreed, but isn't it fun spotting where the quote is from?

There is always someone, somewhere ready and not-so-able to rubbish dear old Ken Russell but that drama-doc led to a revival of interest in the composer that prompted EMI to give us all those Barbirolli recordings!

His film was one of the first of its kind.

Yes, and yes. I agree all the way. Russell caught the beauty of Elgar's work in visual terms. The slow galloping horses may seem a cliche now; but it was fresh then and clearly struck a chord with directors as they used it to death subsequently.

Mike

[Wanderer]

I'll stick my neck out and say - I love Elgar's Second. The First is wonderful, but the Second is deeper. I think it's a rather tragic work. In the first movement (Allegro vivace e nobilmente) I don't hear imperialist, Edwardian pomp at all, but anxiety and nervousness. The motto of the work is Shelley's line 'Rarely comest thou, spirit of Delight', and you (I) can hear the strenuous striving for it - or a strenuous trying to hold on to it - all through the first movement. The second movement, Larghetto, is melancholy and yearning, whereas the Rondo: Presto third movement seems to unleash, in the Trio, all the pent-up anger and frustration. In the final movement, Moderato and maestoso, Elgar seems to attain some sort of serenity or resignation, with the opening gesture of the work dissolving before our ears. It is here where Elgar's Second indeed resembles Brahms's Third, where the same thing occurs in its final bars.

Do you have a favourite recording, Johan? I'm willing to give this work lots of chances (not that I don't like it feebly, mind).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Do you have a favourite recording, Johan? I'm willing to give this work lots of chances (not that I don't like it feebly, mind).

Sir Edward Downes with the BBC Philharmonic on Naxos is excellent, Tasos. You can't go wrong with Boult and the LPO either (on EMI; there is another on Lyrita which I still have to listen to).

[Wanderer]

Sir Edward Downes with the BBC Philharmonic on Naxos is excellent, Tasos. You can't go wrong with Boult and the LPO either (on EMI; there is another on Lyrita which I still have to listen to).

You know, Downes was the one I had in mind when asking you. I'll try that. I was also thinking about Thomson/LPO on Chandos and Sinopoli/Philharmonia on DG (they both have conducted excellent Firsts). And Boult's always recommendable.

PS. Although in a piano mood lately, I might just listen to the Barbirolli later today.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

You know, Downes was the one I had in mind when asking you. I'll try that. I was also thinking about Thomson/LPO on Chandos and Sinopoli/Philharmonia on DG (they both have conducted excellent Firsts). And Boult's always recommendable.

PS. Although in a piano mood lately, I might just listen to the Barbirolli later today.

I am listening to Downes as we speak. It's good - good sound, tempi very natural, the orchestral playing terrific.