Elgar's Hillside

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM

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MN Dave

Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
I care because I am a Finn. It's not only Finland. Elgar's status is low is Poland, France, Italy, China, Brazil, Island, etc.. etc...

I know you're a Finn. I was yanking your chain. Worked, didn't it? ;)

Is the only place they really care about Elgar the UK?

71 dB

Quote from: Beethovenian on January 15, 2010, 11:09:46 AMIs the only place they really care about Elgar the UK?

So I have understood but Elgar probably has some kind of status in US also.
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MN Dave

Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:12:55 AM
So I have understood but Elgar probably has some kind of status in US also.

Well, I certainly play him on occasion.

Elgarian

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 06:19:31 AM
Hear, hear.  It is going to be a delight to hear the Vn Cto live at Symphony Hall this weekend!

Well I hope it's wonderful. (Make sure you wear a windflower in your buttonhole.)

karlhenning

Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
So you say but Beethoven's all 9 symphonies together means to me less than one of Elgar's symphonies.

Which reflects very poorly on you, we might add.

karlhenning

Quote from: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 11:34:30 AM
Well I hope it's wonderful. (Make sure you wear a windflower in your buttonhole.)

Very good, sieur.

71 dB

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 11:42:17 AM
Which reflects very poorly on you, we might add.

Please explain. At least I have been able to make my own opinion instead of sucking into "Beethoven > Elgar" propaganda.
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Scarpia

Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:51:53 AM
Please explain. At least I have been able to make my own opinion instead of sucking into "Beethoven > Elgar" propaganda.

For one thing, it reflects poorly on you that you are unable to acknowledge that people who appreciate Beethoven have also made their own opinion.

Elgarian

Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
but Beethoven's all 9 symphonies together means to me less than one of Elgar's symphonies.
If I'm honest, I should admit that I feel like that too, but there are two different kinds of statements being made here. You and I are talking about a particularly deep and enriching engagement that our temperaments permit us to make with Elgar's music. That such an engagement is possible at all implies that Elgar's symphonies are fine symphonies in some sense, at least. That's quite enough in itself, in my view. There's no need in this to make comparisons with how the symphonies of others affect us. It's not a competition.

Karl, however, is taking a more detached, balanced, broader view, considering Beethoven's symphonies partly, (I suppose) in the context of the history of music, but also, and probably more importantly, considering the abundance of musical invention they contain.

These two views (one mostly subjective, the other based on criteria that can I suppose be clearly established) can happily coexist. I can state with a cheerful smile that I wouldn't swap Elgar's first symphony for all of Beethoven's, while still agreeing that Karl is probably right.

Or, to employ the gastronomical approach to musical appreciation: apples are a better food than ice cream smothered in chocolate sauce, but I still like ice cream more. [Sigh.]

karlhenning

Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:51:53 AM
Please explain. At least I have been able to make my own opinion instead of sucking into "Beethoven > Elgar" propaganda.

Beethoven > Elgar is not propaganda;  it is a large consensus.  There's room for argument here and there;  but overall, musicological evaluation of the two composers scores the advantage to Beethoven.  (And not only in string quartets.)

Elgar > Beethoven is certainly propaganda, and of much the whackier sort.  It is very troubling that you continue in mouth-foaming denial of this.


Quote from: Elgarian on January 15, 2010, 12:09:50 PM
If I'm honest, I should admit that I feel like that too, but there are two different kinds of statements being made here. You and I are talking about a particularly deep and enriching engagement that our temperaments permit us to make with Elgar's music. That such an engagement is possible at all implies that Elgar's symphonies are fine symphonies in some sense, at least. That's quite enough in itself, in my view. There's no need in this to make comparisons with how the symphonies of others affect us. It's not a competition.

Karl, however, is taking a more detached, balanced, broader view, considering Beethoven's symphonies partly, (I suppose) in the context of the history of music, but also, and probably more importantly, considering the abundance of musical invention they contain.

These two views (one mostly subjective, the other based on criteria that can I suppose be clearly established) can happily coexist. I can state with a cheerful smile that I wouldn't swap Elgar's first symphony for all of Beethoven's, while still agreeing that Karl is probably right.

It is a pleasure to share the conversation with you, esteemed sir.

Elgarian

#370
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 12:14:44 PM
It is a pleasure to share the conversation with you, esteemed sir.
Always a pleasure to share a conversation with you, Dr Henning. But if you think I might share my ice cream & chocolate sauce, then let it be known that I'll fight to the death. (You can have the apples though.)

71 dB

Quote from: Scarpia on January 15, 2010, 11:59:30 AM
For one thing, it reflects poorly on you that you are unable to acknowledge that people who appreciate Beethoven have also made their own opinion.

Have they really? I appreciate Beethoven's string quartets because I feel his musical style really shines with that instrumentation. I also feel that his symphonies are under-orchestrated which makes them sound like an elephant in a porcelain store.

Our culture seems to say that we are supposed to appreciate Beethoven. If not then we are freaks and a freak I seem to be.
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71 dB

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 12:14:44 PMBeethoven > Elgar is not propaganda;  it is a large consensus.  There's room for argument here and there;  but overall, musicological evaluation of the two composers scores the advantage to Beethoven.  (And not only in string quartets.)

But what is the historical basis of that large consensus? That's what is interesting. If Beethoven was declared the greatest composer in history when young Elgar was learning to compose, what chance was there for Elgar? That's the point. What I am doing is finding these mistakes in that large consensus. That's what free-thinkers do, question prevailing conceptions. If you think the consensus has been 100 % right then just think about all the "forgotten" composers that have been found. Consensus changes. Someday it favors Elgar if there is justice.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 15, 2010, 12:14:44 PMElgar > Beethoven is certainly propaganda, and of much the whackier sort.  It is very troubling that you continue in mouth-foaming denial of this.[/font]

Yes, it is propaganda and for an important reason.
 
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Scarpia

Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 01:41:09 PM
But what is the historical basis of that large consensus? That's what is interesting. If Beethoven was declared the greatest composer in history when young Elgar was learning to compose, what chance was there for Elgar? That's the point. What I am doing is finding these mistakes in that large consensus. That's what free-thinkers do, question prevailing conceptions. If you think the consensus has been 100 % right then just think about all the "forgotten" composers that have been found. Consensus changes. Someday it favors Elgar if there is justice.

Hehehehe!  I think "free-thinking" means thinking unfettered by any logic or evidence.

When Beethoven learned to compose there were also composers who were considered the great masters, Haydn, Mozart, Handel, etc.  Beethoven found his place nevertheless.  Since Beethoven, other composers have come to be regarded as equal in stature, for instance Brahms, Wagner, perhaps Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Sibelius, or others depending on your inclination.

I wouldn't necessarily label Beethoven the greatest composer in history, but he certainly had a pivotal role the development of western music, and has perhaps been more influential than any composer since.  One thing that is not open to debate is the fact that Elgar not have a similar influence.  He had his own style which was more or less conventional during the period he worked, and  he does not seem to have influenced his contemporaries or the composers that came after him to a great extent.   It does not really make sense to compare Elgar to Beethoven, but it seems clear that Elgar is not of the same stature of some of his contemporaries that had a great influence in the direction of 20th century music, such as those I have referred to above.


71 dB

Quote from: Scarpia on January 15, 2010, 02:19:31 PMElgar not have a similar influence.  He had his own style which was more or less conventional during the period he worked, and  he does not seem to have influenced his contemporaries or the composers that came after him to a great extent.   It does not really make sense to compare Elgar to Beethoven, but it seems clear that Elgar is not of the same stature of some of his contemporaries that had a great influence in the direction of 20th century music, such as those I have referred to above.

Now you are talking about the reasons why Elgar is a victim of history. Elgar should have been very influential but the development of music took anti-Elgarian turns. Elgar was an influence to British composer (Walton, RWV) and for example movie composer John Williams uses Elgarian influences in his scores.
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secondwind

Quote from: Elgarian on January 14, 2010, 12:47:45 AM
It took me years to come to terms with the violin concerto, although now it's one of my most treasured pieces of music. I find it almost painfully beautiful and full of expressions of deep longing. I think for many people it has less immediate appeal than the cello concerto, and they find it too long - largely I suspect because of the 10 minute cadenza he attached at the end, which demands really close attention just when they think they've had enough. But everything that's there is essential as far as I can see. For me, it's a piece that benefits by some knowledge of the biographical background - most notably Elgar's relationship with his 'Windflower' (Alice Stuart Wortley),  his struggle with a deep-seated attitude to a certain feminine archetype, and the tug of war that went on within him between the public and private self.

The key to the concerto lies, in my opinion, in the cadenza. After a respectable half an hour's duration (and following a heartbreakingly moving second movement), just as he seems to be about to wind things up, 10 minutes into the last movement, suddenly a question is raised. Strikingly, the cadenza is announced by an eerie thrumming on the strings and the two 'windflower' themes (introduced so hauntingly in the first movement)  begin a kind of tortured dialogue on the solo violin, as if to say that matters are still unresolved between us. That 10-minute cadenza at times struggles to continue - there are a couple of moments when one feels the music is about to die, almost for sheer lack of momentum. The parallel with Elgar's personal temperament is unmissable, I think - the conflict between public and private persona; the conflict between woman as lover, and woman as mother - I think the cadenza seeks to make a musical resolution that symbolises a possible solution of his emotional conflicts. At the end, it seems that some kind of acceptance is reached - an acceptance that these are the conflicts that drive his music, perhaps? - and the thing is wrapped up with surprising suddenness, as he papers over the cracks with a last blast of the public self.

If you're as interested in Elgar the man as much as I am, then the violin concerto is a fascinating piece of music to explore over a lifetime. If you're not, then maybe that's when these criticisms about it being too long, etc, start to tell. But even so, I'd have thought most people could grow to love the sheer lyrical beauty of the second movement.

Well, this gives me hope for my dear hubby, Elgarian!  If it took you years to "come to terms with" the violin concerto,  I guess I can give hubby a bit of time too.  While I'm waiting for him to come around, I can study the piece a bit on my own, and then perhaps I'll be better able to articulate what I like about it.  You mention interest in Elgar the man--any suggestions where I should turn for info after my usual initial stops (i.e., Slonimsky and Wikipedia ;D)?

71 dB

Quote from: secondwind on January 15, 2010, 08:03:13 PMAny suggestions where I should turn for info after my usual initial stops (i.e., Slonimsky and Wikipedia ;D)?

http://www.elgar.org/welcome.htm
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Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: 71 dB on January 15, 2010, 11:07:42 AM
I care because I am a Finn. It's not only Finland. Elgar's status is low is Poland, France, Italy, China, Brazil, Island, etc.. etc...

Somehow I get the impression that you enjoy exaggerating Elgar's low status. Sorry if I'm misreading you, but that's how it seems to me. Are you one of those guys who likes the feeling of being in a despised and misunderstood minority?  ;D

I posted a couple of times about the numerous Elgar performances in Moscow this year. And yes, he does get played quite a bit in the US (not of course as much as in the UK, but still). I hope this good news doesn't make your head explode.

The Elgar vs. Beethoven debate is pointless. Elgar doesn't have to be one of the handful of supremely great composers to be enjoyable. Hey, I like some Elgar too, but I don't feel a great need to puff him up to ridiculous size.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the two concertos later this year.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

71 dB

Quote from: secondwind on January 16, 2010, 05:05:19 AM
Thanks, 71dB! :)
You are welcome.  ;)

Quote from: Velimir on January 16, 2010, 07:01:24 AM
Somehow I get the impression that you enjoy exaggerating Elgar's low status.

I don't exaggerate Elgar's low status and I don't enjoy his low status.

Quote from: Velimir on January 16, 2010, 07:01:24 AMSorry if I'm misreading you, but that's how it seems to me. Are you one of those guys who likes the feeling of being in a despised and misunderstood minority?  ;D

Well, I am proud about it but I don't think I like it.

Quote from: Velimir on January 16, 2010, 07:01:24 AMI posted a couple of times about the numerous Elgar performances in Moscow this year.

Numerous performances isn't the issue.



Quote from: Velimir on January 16, 2010, 07:01:24 AMThe Elgar vs. Beethoven debate is pointless. Elgar doesn't have to be one of the handful of supremely great composers to be enjoyable. Hey, I like some Elgar too, but I don't feel a great need to puff him up to ridiculous size.

This is the point. I am considered a freak because I think Elgar is much greater than his status

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