Elgar's Hillside

[karlhenning]

Yes, it is propaganda and for an important reason.

Congratulations, Poju: you have discovered the root of your frustration.  Anyone else in the universe perceives that the Elgar > Beethoven propaganda is rubbish;  and that your "important reason" is rubbish.  And that rationalizing your propaganda is intellectual bankruptcy.  End result: your own frustration.  You're a fellow at market trying to sell his sand as porridge, and no one's buying, even when you demo by eating the sand.

[71 dB]

Congratulations, Poju: you have discovered the root of your frustration.  Anyone else in the universe perceives that the Elgar > Beethoven propaganda is rubbish;  and that your "important reason" is rubbish.  And that rationalizing your propaganda is intellectual bankruptcy.  End result: your own frustration.  You're a fellow at market trying to sell his sand as porridge, and no one's buying, even when you demo by eating the sand.

Posts like this takes the discussion out of Elgar and points it to me. I won't get into it. Why not discuss Elgar's part-songs instead? I feel they aren't that well-known...

[Scarpia]

Posts like this takes the discussion out of Elgar and points it to me. I won't get into it. Why not discuss Elgar's part-songs instead? I feel they aren't that well-known...

You also make the discussion about you, my friend.  How many times have you patiently explained to us that your "free-thinking" has allowed you to discover that the broad consensus of composers, performers and listeners around the globe is wrong and that you alone have discovered that Elgar is superior to the hacks the rest of us half-wits have deluded ourselves into thinking are great composers?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Elgar ... VERY Wagner influenced but found his own way within that ...

I read somewhere Elgar's big idol was Brahms, which makes sense...I don't hear too much Wagner influence.

[71 dB]

Elgar ... VERY Wagner influenced but found his own way within that ... i prefer him to overhyped bores like Beethoven (yawn), easily ...

I read somewhere Elgar's big idol was Brahms, which makes sense...I don't hear too much Wagner influence.

Elgar was self-educated. As a child he studied scores (borrowed from his father's music shop) of many composers. Elgar had many strong influences including J. S. Bach, Handel, Beethoven, Mozart, Berlioz and Brahms. I am not sure about how big influence Wagner was as I find both similarities and differences in their music. What I know is Elgar was deeply impressed by the music of sadly forgotten composer Philipp Wolfrum. Handel was perhaps the most educational and inspirational composer to Elgar.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

This makes sense, especially about Handel, who was hugely popular in 19th-c. England. But I hear Elgar's music as a fairly conscious attempt to follow in the Beethoven-Brahms line of orchestral composition. There are also some interesting stylistic points reminiscent of R. Strauss or Mahler, also natural since they were all contemporaries. (Strauss I think was an admirer of Elgar, and I know Mahler conducted him.)

[karlhenning]

Hahn's recording of the Opus 61, while certainly a pleasant enough listen, is a bit too girly and light of tread.  I suspect I always knew this, but its truth was especially emphasized by the gutsy, commanding performance Znaider gave of the work at Symphony this past weekend.  (He plays it again tonight, I believe.)

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Hahn's recording of the Opus 61, while certainly a pleasant enough listen, is a bit too girly and light of tread.  I suspect I always knew this, but its truth was especially emphasized by the gutsy, commanding performance Znaider gave of the work at Symphony this past weekend.  (He plays it again tonight, I believe.)

You know Znaider's recording of it is now out?

All I've got is the old Heifetz from 1949 or so. Highly rated, but one has to contend with the sonics of that period.

[karlhenning]

You know Znaider's recording of it is now out?

I saw that in Jens' recent posts. Certainly on my short list.

[Elgarian]

You mention interest in Elgar the man--any suggestions where I should turn for info after my usual initial stops (i.e., Slonimsky and Wikipedia )?

There are some really fabulous 'I was there' books about Elgar:

Memories of a Variation by 'Mrs Richard Powell' [b. Dora Penny]. She was the inspiration for the 'Dorabella' variation and her reminiscences of her friendship with Elgar are full of charm and presented with great vividness. The chapter where she talks about how Elgar played some of the variations (including hers) for her at the piano, for the first time, is just gorgeous.

Elgar as I Knew Him by W.H. Reed. The author is Billy' Reed - Leader of the London Symphony Orchestra, and one of Elgar's closest friends. I think, if I remember correctly, Elgar consulted him a good deal while composing the violin concerto and they gave a private performance of a version of it with Billy on fiddle and Elgar on piano.

Edward Elgar: The Record of a Friendship by Rosa Burley, who was headmistress of the school where Elgar taught violin before he was famous, and became a friend of long-standing. When asked why she wasn't a Variation, she bravely replied: 'I was the theme!'

Reading all these books is like spending time in Elgar's company - you catch the little things about him: the way he spoke and behaved, his jokes, his unpredictability, his weaknesses, his strengths.

[Elgarian]

I don't hear too much Wagner influence.

My understanding is that Elgar was a pretty ardent Wagnerian, and in the big oratorios (Gerontius,  The Apostles and The Kingdom) there seem to me to be many passages that show the influence of Wagner, in addition to the obvious structural leanings such as the use of the leitmotif as a unifying and dramatic device.

[secondwind]

There are some really fabulous 'I was there' books about Elgar:

Memories of a Variation by 'Mrs Richard Powell' [b. Dora Penny]. She was the inspiration for the 'Dorabella' variation and her reminiscences of her friendship with Elgar are full of charm and presented with great vividness. The chapter where she talks about how Elgar played some of the variations (including hers) for her at the piano, for the first time, is just gorgeous.

Elgar as I Knew Him by W.H. Reed. The author is Billy' Reed - Leader of the London Symphony Orchestra, and one of Elgar's closest friends. I think, if I remember correctly, Elgar consulted him a good deal while composing the violin concerto and they gave a private performance of a version of it with Billy on fiddle and Elgar on piano.

Edward Elgar: The Record of a Friendship by Rosa Burley, who was headmistress of the school where Elgar taught violin before he was famous, and became a friend of long-standing. When asked why she wasn't a Variation, she bravely replied: 'I was the theme!'

Reading all these books is like spending time in Elgar's company - you catch the little things about him: the way he spoke and behaved, his jokes, his unpredictability, his weaknesses, his strengths.

Thanks!  I'll see which of these I can put my hands on soon, and I'll add it to the formidable "to be read" pile. 

[Elgarian]

Thanks!  I'll see which of these I can put my hands on soon, and I'll add it to the formidable "to be read" pile.

Sounds like your pile is no less daunting than mine .... One quality of these in my list is that all three are not very long and each could be read in an afternoon if it came to a squeeze; their essentially anecdotal character makes them easy to absorb.

[drogulus]

     I'm listening to The Kingdom, and thinking about what is meant by musical genius. The Prelude, in the last 3 minutes, is an example of what genius sounds like to me. What does a genius do? Whatever is necessary? Yes, of course, but what is often necessary involves repetition where it isn't expected and cuts with missing beats. The beats aren't filled in, they just go missing. So when I hum the theme I do what people often do, I get it wrong by underestimating the number of repeated phrases and I restore beats that were removed. Or better yet, Elgar heard the music without the beats, if you can do that. I think he wrote the theme and played it back and at some point just cut out a measure here and there. The result is magical, otherworldly. Or it didn't happen that way at all, but some other way, and I can only imagine it like this.

[71 dB]

The result is magical, otherworldly.

To me that is Elgar's trademark.

[drogulus]

      I hate to keep harping on the Prelude* but I just got a chance to compare the Hickox version to the Boult. The Hickox must be a very good performance to achieve the magical quality I talked about, but I'm afraid that a direct comparison with Boult's 1968 recording is not flattering. It's a shame in a way since Hickox has done a fine job and even now I can't complain. It's just that Boult plays this music with more inflection, as though thinking with Elgar's mind. No doubt some of this is due to the fact that Boult has been setting the standard for Elgar for almost a century. Yet I think even if you could listen with fresh ears you would quickly come to think that this is how the music should go.

      _{* {obviously lying}}

      I don't think you can beat this:

      Elgar conducting the BBC SO in the Prelude to The Kingdom.

[karlhenning]

It'll kill Poju . . . our man in Maine reports:

Elgar, so much representative of British classical music, will no longer be a "legal tender" as of June the 30^th.

Here's the dish.

[Elgarian]

It'll kill Poju . . . our man in Maine reports:
 
Here's the dish.

He's had a good run. For a guy who merely wanted to reach the level of fame that meant letters addressed to 'Edward Elgar, England' would reach him, I'd say that to have his face on the currency for ten years would seem a pretty good outcome.

[karlhenning]

Aye.

[Elgarian]

Aye.

Just putting the finishing touches to my letter. There...
Now, sealing the envelope ....

'Karl Henning, America'

That should do it. See you on a dollar bill in a few years' time, Karl.