Elgar's Hillside

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM

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Scarpia

Quote from: 71 dB on March 22, 2010, 11:56:52 AMIt's also alarming to see how strongly people deny brainwashing. Just compare the difference between your listening experiences and what has been taught to you in school and what you have read. Don't believe authority without critical thinking.

Somehow escapes you that it is both offensive and ridiculous to assert that anyone who fails to agree with you is "brainwashed" or has defective thought processes.   When you make statements like this, most people will react by unconditionally disregarding everything you say.   

eyeresist

Quote from: Scarpia on March 21, 2010, 08:14:00 AM
Perhaps the Andrew Davis on Teldec (I always like Teldec sound, but Andrew Davis is a bit of an unknown) or Hickox's recordings of Chandos?  Colin Davis on LSO Live?
I have the Warner Apex 5-CD boxed reissue of Andrew Davis's Elgar. The two discs with the symphonies sound "woolly" to me. I find increasing the treble response makes them sound fresher, but the result is still unfortunate. The rest of the set sounds fine. Performance-wise I'd rank the set as "pretty good". I think his Music Makers is excellent, though I don't have many points of comparison.

kishnevi

Quote from: Velimir on March 22, 2010, 09:19:43 AM


I find this unfair. I've never met anyone who rejects Beethoven in his totality because of his Cantata on the Elevation of Leopold II to the Imperial Dignity, or Brahms because of his Triumphlied (a bombastic celebration of German unification), or Tchaikovsky because of the 1812 Overture or Marche slave. Yet somehow the nationalistic bombast that was part & parcel of European life in the 19th century sticks to Elgar more strongly than to those other composers.


Possibly because the UK remains the UK, whereas there is no more Austro Hungarian, German, or Russian Empires.  So the Elgar contribution is part of something that continues into our time, while the others are not (at least in the formal sense--there is after all the fact that one can say that Russia remains an empire, only a different set of rulers).

Elgarian

Quote from: knight on March 22, 2010, 12:51:15 PM
Now Alan, that bombast remark was initially mine and it was the battering about the ears that Solti dinned me with. I now have the Tate recording of the 2nd, as suggested by Sarge and all is well in the household and the Symphony has regained its rightful place here, sans bombast.

Mike
Aha! That's interesting! Now I have to lay my cards on the table and admit that I have never heard so much as a whisper of Solti's Elgar. If I did, maybe my reaction would be the same as yours,  Mike, and I'd hear bombast in it for the first time!

I'm probably a bit too complacent about it all, having been drawn into Elgar very early on by Sargent, then Boult, and Barbirolli, and then not being particularly bothered about exploring widely.

I'm not convinced that I've ever heard what I'd call a bad Elgar recording, actually. Thinking in terms of both symphonies, I enjoy the Colin Davis LSO live versions with their slow, broad sweeping approach, and Slatkin, and the Andrew Davis too, even though it tends to be Boult or Barbirolli as my first choice.

The third Elgar/Payne symphony is something of a miracle, in my view. I was hugely resistive at first, but gradually it's worked its way under my skin, and by golly it just so much sounds like Elgar! The first movement in particular seems to have some of the preoccupations of the violin concerto. The way it begins, with those great swelling notes like rolling waves, almost like a warning - and then tips over into feminine delicacy with the exquisite second theme and sets up a dialogue between public and private, between masculine and feminine, between duty and longing: this is archetypal Elgar, the dialogue between inner and outer, carrying on where the violin concerto left off. Then later in the work, where he brings in the music from the Arthur suite - that's wonderfully effective, openly admitting the chivalric ideal into the argument in a way that that really does get close to the heart of the man.

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 02:21:40 AM
Aha! That's interesting! Now I have to lay my cards on the table and admit that I have never heard so much as a whisper of Solti's Elgar. If I did, maybe my reaction would be the same as yours,  Mike, and I'd hear bombast in it for the first time!

I'm probably a bit too complacent about it all, having been drawn into Elgar very early on by Sargent, then Boult, and Barbirolli, and then not being particularly bothered about exploring widely.

I'm not convinced that I've ever heard what I'd call a bad Elgar recording, actually. Thinking in terms of both symphonies, I enjoy the Colin Davis LSO live versions with their slow, broad sweeping approach, and Slatkin, and the Andrew Davis too, even though it tends to be Boult or Barbirolli as my first choice.

The third Elgar/Payne symphony is something of a miracle, in my view. I was hugely resistive at first, but gradually it's worked its way under my skin, and by golly it just so much sounds like Elgar! The first movement in particular seems to have some of the preoccupations of the violin concerto. The way it begins, with those great swelling notes like rolling waves, almost like a warning - and then tips over into feminine delicacy with the exquisite second theme and sets up a dialogue between public and private, between masculine and feminine, between duty and longing: this is archetypal Elgar, the dialogue between inner and outer, carrying on where the violin concerto left off. Then later in the work, where he brings in the music from the Arthur suite - that's wonderfully effective, openly admitting the chivalric ideal into the argument in a way that that really does get close to the heart of the man.

Which third do you like?
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

karlhenning

Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 02:21:40 AM
The third Elgar/Payne symphony is something of a miracle, in my view. I was hugely resistive at first, but gradually it's worked its way under my skin, and by golly it just so much sounds like Elgar! The first movement in particular seems to have some of the preoccupations of the violin concerto. The way it begins, with those great swelling notes like rolling waves, almost like a warning - and then tips over into feminine delicacy with the exquisite second theme and sets up a dialogue between public and private, between masculine and feminine, between duty and longing: this is archetypal Elgar, the dialogue between inner and outer, carrying on where the violin concerto left off. Then later in the work, where he brings in the music from the Arthur suite - that's wonderfully effective, openly admitting the chivalric ideal into the argument in a way that that really does get close to the heart of the man.

Most interesting, Alan, thanks.

[ —I mean, drat, my wallet does not thank you, sieur. ]

Elgarian

#526
Quote from: ukrneal on March 23, 2010, 03:42:32 AM
Which third do you like?

I only have two. My first choice is this one:



This was the first version I ever heard, and is still my favourite. For example, Daniel has an incisive, even raw approach to the great 'warning' theme of the beginning, but also when the second theme comes in, he's capable of responding to that with exquisite delicacy and tenderness. Simply marvellous, frankly.

I also have this:



Davis's approach is significantly different - bigger, more spacious. I might say, more 'cloudy'. I can't declare it inferior to the Bournemouth SO effort, but I do find it a little less attractive, less urgent; less nuanced in his response to the most delicately feminine bits. But heck, both discs are as cheap as chips, so why not get both, as I did?

I've toyed with getting Andrew Davis's recording which by all accounts is very fine. And I must also mention this CD:



It seems to be still available on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sketches-Edward-Elgar/dp/B00002687H/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1269358902&sr=1-4
In this CD Anthony Payne takes you step by step through his reconstruction - fascinating stuff.

Also there's an excellent book by Payne about it:



Eminently readable even by an Elgarian of very limited musical brain like myself.

Elgarian

#527
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 23, 2010, 04:31:33 AM

[ —I mean, drat, my wallet does not thank you, sieur. ]

It will, Karl, it will. The Daniel/Bournemouth recording is superb and certainly won't impact your wallet much.

MN Dave

Whenever I see this thread, I think "Elgar's Backside".  ;D

Elgarian

Quote from: MN Dave on March 23, 2010, 07:52:24 AM
Whenever I see this thread, I think "Elgar's Backside".  ;D

Cheers, Dave .... or rather, 'Bottom's up!'

Scarpia

#530
Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 02:21:40 AM
Aha! That's interesting! Now I have to lay my cards on the table and admit that I have never heard so much as a whisper of Solti's Elgar. If I did, maybe my reaction would be the same as yours,  Mike, and I'd hear bombast in it for the first time!

After listening to Barbirolli's 1 over the last few days, I listened to the first movement of Solti's recording.  The tempo is a lot brisker, he gets on with it more quickly, but there is a lack of affection.  I agree with Elgerian that the essence of Elgar is nobility tinged with sadness or regret and Solti seems to make less room for the tinge.  The definition of bombast is language which is padded with grandiose rhetoric, which might be consistent with the impression obtained from Solti's performance.

But to be honest, I am still not comfortable with the entirety of Elgar's first symphony.  The most convincing part is the opening, and the return of the opening theme at the very end in grandiose but autumnal orchestration.  There is also an arrestingly beautiful theme that appears a few minutes into the slow movement.  But the bulk of the first movement and finale fail to make a distinct impression on me, as yet.

karlhenning

Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 07:49:13 AM
It will, Karl, it will. The Daniel/Bournemouth recording is superb and certainly won't impact your wallet much.

Well, you're right there, Alan . . . a Naxos release does not bite deep into the budget.

Sergeant Rock

#532
Quote from: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 07:58:09 AM
After listening to Barbirolli's 1 over the last few days, I listened to the first movement of Solti's recording.  The tempo is a lot brisker, he gets on with it more quickly, but there is a lack of affection.  I agree with Elgerian that the essence of Elgar is nobility tinged with sadness or regret and Solti seems to make less room for the tinge.  The definition of bombast is language which is padded with grandiose rhetoric, which might be consistent with the impression obtained from Solti's performance.

I'm listening to Barbirolli's First also...and doing some quick comparisons with my other versions. Interesting to note that Boult's First, which I usually consider my favorite along with Previn (a really glorious account that all Elgarians should hear) is actually a few seconds faster, overall, than Solti. I just can't describe Solti's as bombastic. That's not the way I hear it. But then we all have very individual ears  ;)


Timings for Elgar Symphony #1

                           I         II         III        IV
Sinopoli          20:41   7:10    14:10   13:27 (55:28)

Davis (LSO)    21:00   7:52   12:47    12:45 (54:47)

Tate               20:39   7:10   14:16   12:22  (54:27)

Barbirolli         21:39   7:03   12:15   12:46  (53:43)

Previn            19:26   6:52   12:58   12:27  (51:43)

Solti               17:45   7:08   12:12   11:38  (48:43)

Boult (EMI)    18:33   7:14    10:53   12:01  (48:41)


Sarge




the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

DavidRoss

Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 07:53:43 AM
Cheers, Dave .... or rather, 'Bottom's up!'
Hah!  ;D

Quote from: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 07:58:09 AMI agree with Elgerian that the essence of Elgar is nobility tinged with sadness or regret
I agree with this, too...or at least agree that this is the essence of the Elgar that I find appealing.

"One cannot be deeply responsive to the world without being saddened very often." ~Erich Fromm

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 23, 2010, 08:52:02 AMInteresting to note that Boult's First, which I usually consider my favorite along with Previn (a really glorious account that all Elgarians should hear)
Previn's is my keeper, Sarge.  8)
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 23, 2010, 09:03:34 AM
Previn's is my keeper, Sarge.  8)

It's perfect...like his Walton 1. Definitely goes to the desert island.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

karlhenning

Well, I didn't find the Elgar Third Naxos rec at either Borders or F.Y.E. . . . and anyway, I ought to sit down and listen to my Tate recording of the First & Second, firstly! ; )

Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on March 23, 2010, 07:58:09 AM
But to be honest, I am still not comfortable with the entirety of Elgar's first symphony.  The most convincing part is the opening, and the return of the opening theme at the very end in grandiose but autumnal orchestration.  There is also an arrestingly beautiful theme that appears a few minutes into the slow movement.  But the bulk of the first movement and finale fail to make a distinct impression on me, as yet.

How about the section in the last movement that begins about 4 minutes in with a march-like theme - dom dom dom diddle dom dom doo dah - which builds and builds, with strings swirling threateningly around and around, like an invading army circling around a hilltop, ever more dangerous .... until dark notes from the basses make us pause, and then suddenly, miraculously,  around 6m30s, that same theme swells upwards on the strings, transformed almost beyond recognition from military threat to some kind of reconciliation or ultimate spiritual redemption, almost, but not quite, completing itself after about 8 minutes. The re-emergence of that theme, there, dressed in completely new clothes, is one of the greatest moments in all Elgar, for me. And when after that the march theme appears again, transformed in our perceptions because we've just been shown what it can be transformed into, it does so only to herald the magnificent return of the original theme, that fantastic tune, from the first movement - and I know that once you arrive at that point, you're OK.

But try starting 4 minutes into the final movement, where the march begins, and listen to that entire closing 9 minutes as a whole. Once you get that, try going back and listening to the whole movement again, where all this is presented mixed up together and stirred like some kind of primeval soup - the outcome merely hinted at but not guaranteed, until order begins to emerge (around 4 mins).

[Timings based on Colin Davis LSO Live.]

Scarpia

Quote from: Elgarian on March 23, 2010, 09:50:40 AM
How about the section in the last movement that begins about 4 minutes in with a march-like theme - dom dom dom diddle dom dom doo dah - which builds and builds, with strings swirling threateningly around and around, like an invading army circling around a hilltop, ever more dangerous .... until dark notes from the basses make us pause, and then suddenly, miraculously,  around 6m30s, that same theme swells upwards on the strings, transformed almost beyond recognition from military threat to some kind of reconciliation or ultimate spiritual redemption, almost, but not quite, completing itself after about 8 minutes. The re-emergence of that theme, there, dressed in completely new clothes, is one of the greatest moments in all Elgar, for me. And when after that the march theme appears again, transformed in our perceptions because we've just been shown what it can be transformed into, it does so only to herald the magnificent return of the original theme, that fantastic tune, from the first movement - and I know that once you arrive at that point, you're OK.

But try starting 4 minutes into the final movement, where the march begins, and listen to that entire closing 9 minutes as a whole. Once you get that, try going back and listening to the whole movement again, where all this is presented mixed up together and stirred like some kind of primeval soup - the outcome merely hinted at but not guaranteed, until order begins to emerge (around 4 mins).

[Timings based on Colin Davis LSO Live.]

Yes, these are the sorts of things I am missing.  I think the opulence of Elgar's orchestration sometimes obscures such thematic developments.  I am expecting delivery of several Elgar recordings and I will spin the 1st symphony with your notes in mind.

71 dB

I want to apologize what I wrote yesterday. I take my statement about brainwashing back. I removed some of my messages. I forgot to be polite, sorry.

Quote from: ukrneal on March 23, 2010, 03:42:32 AM
Which third do you like?
I have Andrew Davis on NMC (also the commentary CD) and Paul Daniel on Naxos. I find these performances equally good. Andrew Davis does the second movement "Scherzo: Allegretto" fantastically but Paul Daniel does a more clean and smooth overall job.

I like this elaboration very much, almost as much as the first and second.  0:)
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

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mc ukrneal

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 23, 2010, 09:35:07 AM
Well, I didn't find the Elgar Third Naxos rec at either Borders or F.Y.E. . . . and anyway, I ought to sit down and listen to my Tate recording of the First & Second, firstly! ; )
And secondly!  :)
Be kind to your fellow posters!!