Elgar's Hillside

[knight66]

This discussion has prompted me to give the 3rd another try. I have not cracked it yet.

Mike

[Elgarian]

I am expecting delivery of several Elgar recordings and I will spin the 1st symphony with your notes in mind.

I betcha a million pounds that if you listen to those last 9 minutes (possibly twice over) with that core structure at the back of your mind, you'll make a breakthrough.

[knight66]

I have given the third another try. I have Andrew Davis BBC SO version. For anyone interested in acquiring a version: the notes with this recording are fascinating. There is both an extended piece by Colin Matthews discussing the morality of completing such unfinished pieces, then an essay by Anthony Payne.

This was the premier recording and appropriate; as the commission to Elgar and the eventual commission to Payne came from the BBC.

I have not been able to get to grips with it, though I had not really tried hard. This time round, the first movement felt like an old friend, mind you one with plenty of life in him. The middle two movements continue to be rather indistinct fog for me and the final movement fell between these two extremes.

I should think a further three times through and I will feel a lot more comfortable. I do believe it is well worth persevering, there is some beautiful and stirring music in it.

Mike

[Scarpia]

I want to apologize what I wrote yesterday. I take my statement about brainwashing back. I removed some of my messages. I forgot to be polite, sorry.

Thank you for your courtesy.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Whenever I see this thread, I think "Elgar's Backside". 

That's really very funny.

[Scarpia]

I betcha a million pounds that if you listen to those last 9 minutes (possibly twice over) with that core structure at the back of your mind, you'll make a breakthrough.

I did listen to the remainder of Solti's recording of this piece and I see what you mean.  Perhaps my problem with this music is that if I don't pay attention it starts to sound like a Pomp and Circumstance March and trio.   The Nobilmente is Elgar's basic idiom and I have to pay attention to how he is modulating it in these works.

But in the end, Solti is not the conductor I want to be listening to in this music.  The finale is rushed, to my ears, and a lot more could be made of the third movment.

[71 dB]

Perhaps my problem with this music is that if I don't pay attention it starts to sound like a Pomp and Circumstance March and trio.   The Nobilmente is Elgar's basic idiom and I have to pay attention to how he is modulating it in these works.

I have to pay attention too while listening to Elgar. This is not a problem at all since no other music makes me pay attention like Elgar does. I find it very captivating.

[Elgarian]

I did listen to the remainder of Solti's recording of this piece and I see what you mean.  Perhaps my problem with this music is that if I don't pay attention it starts to sound like a Pomp and Circumstance March and trio.   The Nobilmente is Elgar's basic idiom and I have to pay attention to how he is modulating it in these works.

But in the end, Solti is not the conductor I want to be listening to in this music.

I don't know Solti's Elgar, and from Mike's comments earlier (and yours) I don't think I want to. It sounds as if he's conducting some kind of caricature, rather than an interpretation as I'd understand it.

The Nobilmente is, yes, certainly Elgar's idiom: but it represents a chivalric and noble ideal, not a self-aggrandising achievement. It's something to be aimed for, concerned with justice, freedom, and brotherhood - not something smug, to be swanked about. Elgar's Imperialism is hugely misunderstood - and this is partly because he was unwise  enough to set a few pieces of music to some ill-chosen words written by others. If one plucks those out in isolation (like the finale to Caractacus, for instance), then of course one can make a case for something rather tasteless if one ignores everything else. But I don't believe there is even a whisper of anything approaching jingoism in the first symphony.

That transformation I spoke of - where the militaristic march is transformed into a heart-lifting, visionary melody from Heaven, which in turn is allowed to lead into the wonderful tune from the first movement, tells the whole story. A celebration of Englishness, yes - but an Englishness based on a love of the land and the chivalric ideal, and the optimistic hope for transformation. After all, Elgar himself said that the symphony had no programme "beyond a wide experience of human life with a great charity and a massive hope in the future". I think that's bang on.

[Elgarian]

This time round, the first movement felt like an old friend, mind you one with plenty of life in him.

Do you see what I mean, Mike, about the contrast between the masculine, 'warning' character of the first theme, and the gentle comforting femininity of the second theme? (By all accounts he'd become infatuated by a young lady called Vera Hockman when he was composing this, and she effectively became the muse that inspired the feminine half of that wonderful musical dialogue in the 1st movement.)

[karlhenning]

The Nobilmente is, yes, certainly Elgar's idiom: but it represents a chivalric and noble ideal, not a self-aggrandising achievement. It's something to be aimed for, concerned with justice, freedom, and brotherhood . . . .

Yes, a humane trait, and not any chauvinistic matter.

[Scarpia]

I think I am starting to "get" Elgar's first, Elgerian's description was a big help.  Another key was listening to Solti, which stripped the symphony of every worthwhile attribute, then returning to Barbirolli, whose reading is a masterpiece.   

[knight66]

Glad to read it. It sounds like Solti did much the same in the First for you as he did for me in the Second.

Mike

[Scarpia]

Now a question, should I consider Boult's recordings essential in this music?

[mc ukrneal]

Now a question, should I consider Boult's recordings essential in this music?

Boult is fantastic in this music. He has all the 'nobleness' you could want. I particularly like symphony #2.

[Elgarian]

If it were The Elgar Interpreters' last stand, and the arrows were flying thick and fast, it would be Boult and Barbirolli that I would hope were the last two standing.

[Scarpia]

This one came in the mail today and I briefly sampled the ending.



Really splendid.  I can't say that Zinman is doing anything particularly brilliant with it, but they are playing it properly and the Telarc sound is clear, full bodied and beautifully imaged, making it possible to the details of orchestration with excellent clarity.  To bad we can't transport their recording rig back in time to 1962 and use it to record Barbirolli's performance.

[Scarpia]

The Andrew Davis 5CD set finally arrived, very lavish with extensive notes on all of the works included.  I listened to the Symphony No. 1.  Generally splendid, taken in a relaxed tempo with a feel not unlike Barbirolli's, but without the limitations of 1963 audio engineering.  I was a little bit disappointed to see that the recordings were done by Tony Faulkner (the guy who does most orchestral recordings for Hyperion) rather than Teldec's own engineering team.  But the results are good, perhaps a little bright for my taste, but not bad at all. 

Note added:
Having listened to the recording a second part, I would say it has many beautiful moments, particularly the passage which Elgarian described so eloquently, in which the vigorous theme introduced in the finale is transformed into a gentle, celestial theme in the middle of the movement.  That gentle passage is pulled off better in this recording than in any of the others I've been listening to, including Barbirolli.  Overall, I'd say Andrew Davis' approach is very similar to Barbirolli's, and only suffers from a flagging of momentum in a few of the more vigorous passages.  Splendid

[drogulus]

If it were The Elgar Interpreters' last stand, and the arrows were flying thick and fast, it would be Boult and Barbirolli that I would hope were the last two standing.

     The only conductor I can think of that interprets Elgar as well, or perhaps better, is Elgar.

     In an earlier post I compared performances of the Prelude to The Kingdom by Hickox and Boult. I believe that most lovers of Elgar would agree that Boult has a more nuanced understanding of this music.

     Prelude (Hickox)

     Prelude (Boult)

     And here is Elgar:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/VVU9CXPq-oo

     It's true, Elgar was a terrific conductor of his own music based on this. You can see, though, from a comparison of these 3 that Boult is right up there. There is a transition that particularly shows what this sensitivity to a composer's intentions can mean. It's at 6:13 in Elgar, 5:46 in Boult, 6:44 in Hickox. It's a small thing that makes a big difference.

[eyeresist]

Whenever I see this thread, I think "Elgar's Backside". 

Then there's that thread, "The Incredible Water Pistol".

[karlhenning]

Then there's that thread, "The Incredible Water Pistol".

Hah!