Elgar's Hillside

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM

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Elgarian

#680
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 29, 2010, 06:55:24 AMMy first month at UVa (where I took a Master's degree), I was at the department one Tuesday, and my shoulder was tapped to turn pages for the accompanist at that evening's recital.  So it was that I got to know both the Elgar Violin Sonata, and (not to speak to, of course) Nigel Kennedy, on the same evening.  Fabulous piece (which if anything I like even more than the Concerto, not that I don't like the Concerto a great deal), and a fabulous performance.  The man who played both that Sonata, and the Bartók Solo Sonata, is an artist of the highest calibre, who played that night with a blend of sensitivity and fire which continues to be an example to this clarinetist.[/font]
I envy you that experience. It's the kind of thing that's capable of changing one's perception permanently, and brings a special kind of insight that I think is enormously valuable. To be able to forge a special relationship of that sort with a performer, quite apart from the special warmth it induces, makes it easier to be 'open' to the music; one automatically gives the performer the benefit of the doubt, so that the negative 'I don't get that' response becomes 'why did he do that?' - which is more capable of leading us on to new insight.

I never met Hugh Bean, but his recording taught me how to listen to Elgar's violin concerto (and the violin sonata for that matter), way back in the 1970s when I could hardly afford to buy records at all, and certainly not alternative versions. So his recording was for a long time all I had, but over the years as I read more about Elgar, and his letters, and Windflower, and Billy Reed, and so on, I always found that Bean's recording was able to transform the knowledge I'd gathered from the books to a directly felt, musical experience: the sensitivity of his playing always matched so perfectly with what I was reading, and drew me deeper in. I wish that I'd written to tell him so, and thank him. Too late now.

(Incidentally, I was listening, as I wrote this, to the first movement, and from the very first moment that Bean's violin entered, so delicately and sensitively, as if every note of Elgar's is understood, it became impossible to do anything other than stop writing, and listen.)

So you see, look at all this baggage I carry around with me! I can no more expect others to listen to Bean the way I do, than you could expect others to have the special way of listening to Kennedy that you have, Karl. One of the problems we face when we try to describe the differences we hear is that at one level the differences are often extremely subtle, while on another they're crucial. So I think we often exaggerate our response to what we're hearing, when we talk or write about it. To try to balance things a bit, in case anyone suspects me of Beanmania, it may be worth saying that every one of the dozen or so recordings of the Elgar violin concerto that I own is capable of moving me to tears. The fact that Bean/Groves (and to a lesser extent Kang/Leaper) emerges for me as something special doesn't actually mean I think the others are poor. I've never heard a performance of the VC that I thought was poor.

Incidentally, it looks like we're going to have to talk about the wonderful violin sonata sometime.

karlhenning

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 03:16:09 AM
Incidentally, it looks like we're going to have to talk about the wonderful violin sonata sometime.

Bring it on! ; )

DavidRoss

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 03:16:09 AM...to forge a special relationship of that sort with a performer...makes it easier to be 'open' to the music; one automatically gives the performer the benefit of the doubt, so that the negative 'I don't get that' response becomes 'why did he do that?' - which is more capable of leading us on to new insight.
Cool, Alan.   8)  This observation drives to the heart of what has proven among the most valuable lessons of my life:  when I listen to understand instead of to oppose, I learn.  My world expands.  Perhaps compassion is what opens our minds to understanding...especially when others seem different or strange, when the way they play or the words they say assail us with new perspectives that challenge us to stray from the comfortable security of the familiar.  Compassion enables us to welcome the challenge instead of resisting it, and thus to see with new eyes, hear with new ears, and discover what may be of value in the points of view others offer.

Having said all that, I'm still not sure that I'm ready for Bean's take on Elgar.

"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

karlhenning

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 03:16:09 AM
I envy you that experience. It's the kind of thing that's capable of changing one's perception permanently, and brings a special kind of insight that I think is enormously valuable. To be able to forge a special relationship of that sort with a performer, quite apart from the special warmth it induces, makes it easier to be 'open' to the music; one automatically gives the performer the benefit of the doubt, so that the negative 'I don't get that' response becomes 'why did he do that?' - which is more capable of leading us on to new insight.

I never met Hugh Bean, but his recording taught me how to listen to Elgar's violin concerto (and the violin sonata for that matter), way back in the 1970s when I could hardly afford to buy records at all, and certainly not alternative versions. So his recording was for a long time all I had, but over the years as I read more about Elgar, and his letters, and Windflower, and Billy Reed, and so on, I always found that Bean's recording was able to transform the knowledge I'd gathered from the books to a directly felt, musical experience: the sensitivity of his playing always matched so perfectly with what I was reading, and drew me deeper in. I wish that I'd written to tell him so, and thank him. Too late now.

(Incidentally, I was listening, as I wrote this, to the first movement, and from the very first moment that Bean's violin entered, so delicately and sensitively, as if every note of Elgar's is understood, it became impossible to do anything other than stop writing, and listen.)

So you see, look at all this baggage I carry around with me! I can no more expect others to listen to Bean the way I do, than you could expect others to have the special way of listening to Kennedy that you have, Karl. One of the problems we face when we try to describe the differences we hear is that at one level the differences are often extremely subtle, while on another they're crucial. So I think we often exaggerate our response to what we're hearing, when we talk or write about it. To try to balance things a bit, in case anyone suspects me of Beanmania, it may be worth saying that every one of the dozen or so recordings of the Elgar violin concerto that I own is capable of moving me to tears. The fact that Bean/Groves (and to a lesser extent Kang/Leaper) emerges for me as something special doesn't actually mean I think the others are poor. I've never heard a performance of the VC that I thought was poor.

A thorough pleasure to read, thank you!  Looking forward to getting to know the Bean and Kang recordings!

Sergeant Rock

Due to a chronic condition I've decided to limit my contributions to short bursts for a few days. Hoping that will relieve the painful symptoms. And too, I have Kang on the way from JPC, Bean en route from the UK (just got an email from the seller) and the Ehnes/A. Davis in my hands now. I'll write up my impressions of all three next week.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

karlhenning

Quote from: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 04:33:18 AM
Cool, Alan.   8)  This observation drives to the heart of what has proven among the most valuable lessons of my life:  when I listen to understand instead of to oppose, I learn.  My world expands.  Perhaps compassion is what opens our minds to understanding [. . . .]

This really hit me (not that it was a new idea) when I read it very simply put in the foreword of Jazz by Gary Giddins and Scott DeVeaux:

QuoteAll music—all art, all entertainment—requires empathy [. . . .]

What I find myself to be increasingly aware of, participating in Internet music discussion fora, is how many of us seem to take their empathy for certain [pieces/composers/performers/recordings], and employ that as a bridgehead to assail [pieces/composers/performers/recordings] for which they somehow do not have empathy.

Elgarian

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 25, 2010, 01:50:14 PM
Have you given the Hahn recording a spin yet, Alan?
I've been taking a peek at a couple of reviews of Ms Hahn's version, and they don't make for encouraging reading. Here's Gramophone:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/60/849308/Elgar+Vaughan+Williams+Elgar+Violin+Concerto+Vaughan+Williams+The+Lark+Ascending+Hilary+Hahn+vn+London+Symphony+Orchestra++Sir+Colin+Davis+DG+0+474+5042+....+8732+%2866+%E2%80%A2+DDD%29

and here's MusicWeb:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Sept04/Elgar_Hahn.htm

Both a bit worrying, really, when I add your comments to those, Karl. Point is, I don't have Ehnes, and I don't have Zehetmair (to name only more recent ones among many others), both of which I'd like to try - and so I'm wondering whether I really want to spend £10 on Ms Hahn's recording at this stage. I think I shall pass for the moment, and keep an eye open for a cheap 2nd hand copy.

Elgarian

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 04:40:46 AM
Due to a chronic condition I've decided to limit my contributions to short bursts for a few days. Hoping that will relieve the painful symptoms. And too, I have Kang on the way from JPC, Bean en route from the UK (just got an email from the seller) and the Ehnes/A. Davis in my hands now. I'll write up my impressions of all three next week.
Sorry to hear you're suffering, Sarge. At least you have in your hands, and in the post, the potential to alleviate the symptoms through ennobling distraction!

eyeresist

Hope you feel better soon, Sarge.

Elgarian

Quote from: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 04:33:18 AM
Perhaps compassion is what opens our minds to understanding...especially when others seem different or strange, when the way they play or the words they say assail us with new perspectives that challenge us to stray from the comfortable security of the familiar.  Compassion enables us to welcome the challenge instead of resisting it, and thus to see with new eyes, hear with new ears, and discover what may be of value in the points of view others offer.
Interesting choice of word there, Dave: couple that with Karl's 'empathy' and we're getting very close to the real centre of not only the 'art experience' but also the essential core of  human experience. Which of course is why art is capable of making such profound changes in us, when we're receptive enough to allow it.

QuoteHaving said all that, I'm still not sure that I'm ready for Bean's take on Elgar.

I don't think the World is ready for it, actually. His deeply misunderstood technique is based on his revolutionary recognition that the violin has hitherto been used by all players with the wrong end under the chin.

DavidRoss

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:07:30 AM
I've been taking a peek at a couple of reviews of Ms Hahn's version, and they don't make for encouraging reading.
Discouraging, indeed.  Sure glad I wasn't swayed by them before getting my copy!  It seems as if Ms Hahn's success has bred the inevitable backlash.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery, Sarge!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Elgarian

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 30, 2010, 04:41:10 AM
What I find myself to be increasingly aware of, participating in Internet music discussion fora, is how many of us seem to take their empathy for certain [pieces/composers/performers/recordings], and employ that as a bridgehead to assail [pieces/composers/performers/recordings] for which they somehow do not have empathy.
It's said that if you look closely at the two fish in the Python fish-slapping dance, one is labelled Empathy and the other, Compassion.

karlhenning

Quote from: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 05:22:04 AM
Discouraging, indeed.  Sure glad I wasn't swayed by them before getting my copy!  It seems as if Ms Hahn's success has bred the inevitable backlash.

That may be (probably in those reviews, which I have not read) . . . but my less-than-complete satisfaction with the recording is just a matter between my ears, so to speak.

karlhenning

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:24:49 AM
It's said that if you look closely at the two fish in the Python fish-slapping dance, one is labelled Empathy and the other, Compassion.

I dread to think of the Name of the fish in John Cleese's hands.

— Oh! Must be Eric!

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: eyeresist on April 30, 2010, 05:16:03 AM
Hope you feel better soon, Sarge.

Thank you but I remain pessimistic for now. They can't find a cause for what's ailing me. Giving up my computer for a few days, or a few weeks, would ease the discomfort but that's not causing my symptoms, only aggravating them. I need Dr. House  :D

Quote from: DavidRoss on April 30, 2010, 05:22:04 AM
Discouraging, indeed.  Sure glad I wasn't swayed by them before getting myIt seems as if Ms Hahn's success has bred the inevitable backlash.

While I agree wth some of the criticism (a lack of tonal variety is my biggest complaint against her playing) I think they are way too harsh on her and Davis. The truth, I think, lies somewhere between Gramophone's put down and Hurwitz's 10/10 rave.

QuoteBest wishes for a speedy recovery, Sarge!

Thanks, David.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Scarpia

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:07:30 AM
I've been taking a peek at a couple of reviews of Ms Hahn's version, and they don't make for encouraging reading. Here's Gramophone:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/60/849308/Elgar+Vaughan+Williams+Elgar+Violin+Concerto+Vaughan+Williams+The+Lark+Ascending+Hilary+Hahn+vn+London+Symphony+Orchestra++Sir+Colin+Davis+DG+0+474+5042+....+8732+%2866+%E2%80%A2+DDD%29

and here's MusicWeb:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Sept04/Elgar_Hahn.htm

Both a bit worrying, really, when I add your comments to those, Karl. Point is, I don't have Ehnes, and I don't have Zehetmair (to name only more recent ones among many others), both of which I'd like to try - and so I'm wondering whether I really want to spend £10 on Ms Hahn's recording at this stage. I think I shall pass for the moment, and keep an eye open for a cheap 2nd hand copy.

Oh, piffle.  One one thing I learned from this review is the Hilary Hahn is not British.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:12:16 AM
Sorry to hear you're suffering, Sarge. At least you have in your hands, and in the post, the potential to alleviate the symptoms through ennobling distraction!

I do indeed  :)  ..matter of fact, the postwoman just now delivered the JPC package that includes Kang.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Scarpia

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 05:40:32 AM
I do indeed  :)  ..matter of fact, the postwoman just now delivered the JPC package that includes Kang.

Sarge

Now, now, we don't want to be listening to something that will get us all excited.  Best to queue up a dozen or so recordings of Pachbel's Canon.   8)

Elgarian

#698
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 05:40:32 AM
I do indeed  :)  ..matter of fact, the postwoman just now delivered the JPC package that includes Kang.
Prepare yourself to be whisked away into the alternative raggle-taggle gypsy world of Windflower!

Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 05:37:47 AM
Oh, piffle.  One one thing I learned from this review is the Hilary Hahn is not British.
Well, not having heard the recording I can't say anything directly about the piffleness coefficient of those reviews, but I'm concerned about statements like this:

'After the LSO's portentous opening to the work Hahn enters with limply defined tone and half-hearted expression. What should be a moment of magical wonder (identical almost to the soloists first entry in Beethoven's concerto) passes as nondescript ambivalence.'

The reviewer wins my sympathy by his recognition of how special that first violin entry is in this concerto (in fact I was talking about this in an earlier post, commenting on the sensitivity of Bean's first entry). 'Magical wonder' it is, indeed. So if he thinks Hahn hasn't captured that, it gives me pause. Doesn't mean I'll agree with him when I listen to it myself, but it's an interesting thing for him to say, from my point of view.