Elgar's Hillside

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 04:40:46 AM
Due to a chronic condition I've decided to limit my contributions to short bursts for a few days. Hoping that will relieve the painful symptoms. And too, I have Kang on the way from JPC, Bean en route from the UK (just got an email from the seller) and the Ehnes/A. Davis in my hands now. I'll write up my impressions of all three next week.

Sarge

Sorry to hear that. Perhaps a dose of Elgar every four hours (and a pretty cover) will help? And if not - at least no side effects (except good ones I would think).
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Scarpia

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:58:27 AM
Well, not having heard the recording I can't say anything directly about the piffleness coefficient of those reviews, but I'm concerned about statements like this:

'After the LSO's portentous opening to the work Hahn enters with limply defined tone and half-hearted expression. What should be a moment of magical wonder (identical almost to the soloists first entry in Beethoven's concerto) passes as nondescript ambivalence.'

The reviewer wins my sympathy by his recognition of how special that first violin entry is in this concerto (in fact I was talking about this in an earlier post, commenting on the sensitivity of Bean's first entry). 'Magical wonder' it is, indeed. So if he thinks Hahn hasn't captured that, it gives me pause. Doesn't mean I'll agree with him when I listen to it myself, but it's an interesting thing for him to say, from my point of view.

I find the statement more telling about the reviewer than the review.   I think the violin should enter with some delicacy, not an overwrought, melodramatic outburst.  In fact, my problem with Kennedy was that he seemed to think it was necessary to torture every music phrase in the piece as if to represent a soul writhing in the lowest circle of Dante's inferno.  Grace and poise, which Hahn exhibits, are not bad attributes in this music, to my mind.  My main problem with the recording is the unnatural acoustic I associate with Abbey Road.  I wish they had recorded it in a proper concert hall.

Elgarian

Just been trawling through the Gramophone archive. Because the Bean/Groves Elgar VC has been reissued so many times, there have been quite a lot of reviews of it down the years, and I've found it a great pleasure this afternoon to dredge them up and compare notes with them. Here they are, in case anyone else is interested:

1973:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201973/44/820954/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Hugh+Bean+%28violin%29%2C+Royal+Liver+pool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves.+HMV+ASD2883+%28J228%29.

1980:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/January%201980/41/823828/Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves.

1993:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/September%201993/50/761559/+Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61a.+Sonata+for+Violin+and+Piano+in+E+minor%2C+Op.+82b+Hugh+Bean+%28vn%29+bDavid+Parkhouse+%28p1%29.+aYj+Liverpool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+I+Sir+Charles+Groves.

2004:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/69/849326/Elgar

There's an honorable mention in passing from 1997 here:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/October%201997/62/861522/Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Polonia%2C+Op.+76b%2C+Ida+Haendel+%28vn%29+BBC+Symphony+Orchestra+I+Sir+John+Pritchard+18BC+Northern+Symphony+Orchestra+I+SirAndriej+Panufnik.

Then there's a roundup of a whole string of versions of the VC speading over several pages, here, from 1998:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%201998/28/746969/Elgars

Some interesting comments in these last two about Kang, too.

karlhenning

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:43:45 AM
Prepare yourself to be whisked away into the alternative raggle-taggle gypsy world of Windflower!

All I can say is: Zowie!

karlhenning

Or perhaps even, Wowie zowie!

Scarpia

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 06:20:41 AM
Just been trawling through the Gramophone archive. Because the Bean/Groves Elgar VC has been reissued so many times, there have been quite a lot of reviews of it down the years, and I've found it a great pleasure this afternoon to dredge them up and compare notes with them. Here they are, in case anyone else is interested:

1973:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201973/44/820954/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Hugh+Bean+%28violin%29%2C+Royal+Liver+pool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves.+HMV+ASD2883+%28J228%29.

1980:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/January%201980/41/823828/Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Charles+Groves.

1993:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/September%201993/50/761559/+Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61a.+Sonata+for+Violin+and+Piano+in+E+minor%2C+Op.+82b+Hugh+Bean+%28vn%29+bDavid+Parkhouse+%28p1%29.+aYj+Liverpool+Philharmonic+Orchestra+I+Sir+Charles+Groves.

2004:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%202004/69/849326/Elgar

There's an honorable mention in passing from 1997 here:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/October%201997/62/861522/Elgar+Concerto+for+Violin+and+Orchestra+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Polonia%2C+Op.+76b%2C+Ida+Haendel+%28vn%29+BBC+Symphony+Orchestra+I+Sir+John+Pritchard+18BC+Northern+Symphony+Orchestra+I+SirAndriej+Panufnik.

Then there's a roundup of a whole string of versions of the VC speading over several pages, here, from 1998:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%201998/28/746969/Elgars

Some interesting comments in these last two about Kang, too.

From the first review:

QuoteWhen I first heard his opening entry I felt it lacked the kind of dramatic authority and command of Sammons and yet when one rehears it the very undramatic nature of his intervention seems part and parcel of his view of the work as a whole. it is as if the solo voice grows out of the exposition; he is the quiet voice of conscience rather than the dominating and forceful virtuoso; he is primus inter pares rather than the challenger of the orchestra.

Sounds like your Grammophon reviewer who ripped into Hahn would say the same of Bean.

Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 06:09:14 AM
I think the violin should enter with some delicacy, not an overwrought, melodramatic outburst.
Certainly it should, and indeed that was my point, and why his comment interests me. Does the reviewer (who nowhere mentions Kennedy, I think) imply that he thinks it should be a melodramatic outburst? I can't find any such implication.

Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 06:33:40 AM
From the first review:

Sounds like your Grammophon reviewer who ripped into Hahn would say the same of Bean.
Possible indeed, though I've yet to find out for myself whether Hahn's approach in any way resembles Bean's other than in being describable with words like 'graceful'. Until I've heard Hahn, and you've heard Bean, we can't reach any sensible conclusion between us about any of this.

springrite

Saw this and wondered what it's all about and if it may be worth a listen:

Elgar, Violin Sonata {Paul Robertson w.J.Bingham, piano}; 'Wood Magic' (An account, told, as far as possible, in Elgar's own words or in those of friends and contemporaries, of how he came to write 4 pieces composed in 1918-19. Performed by Richard Pasco & Barbara Leigh-Hunt. Includes many musical excerpts performed by Medici String Quartet et al. Total time: 72'36')
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Elgarian

Quote from: springrite on April 30, 2010, 06:41:16 AM
Saw this and wondered what it's all about and if it may be worth a listen:

Elgar, Violin Sonata {Paul Robertson w.J.Bingham, piano}; 'Wood Magic' (An account, told, as far as possible, in Elgar's own words or in those of friends and contemporaries, of how he came to write 4 pieces composed in 1918-19. Performed by Richard Pasco & Barbara Leigh-Hunt. Includes many musical excerpts performed by Medici String Quartet et al. Total time: 72'36')
Thanks for this. Have you seen it for sale anywhere? I can find a CD called 'Wood Magic' which contains the string quartet and the piano quintet, but seems to be only the music, with no narrative so far as I can see.

springrite

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 06:52:16 AM
Thanks for this. Have you seen it for sale anywhere? I can find a CD called 'Wood Magic' which contains the string quartet and the piano quintet, but seems to be only the music, with no narrative so far as I can see.

I saw it at BRO. In addition to the violin sonata, I am wondering what the works discussed (and excerpts played) may be?
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 05:42:25 AM
Now, now, we don't want to be listening to something that will get us all excited.  Best to queue up a dozen or so recordings of Pachbel's Canon.   8)

Following Dr. Scarpia's advice, I put this in the player:




Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Scarpia

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 07:28:34 AM
Following Dr. Scarpia's advice, I put this in the player:




Sarge

At the very least you'll soon be asleep and resting comfortably. 

In any case, hope you've soon recovered so we can benefit from your wisdom and prodigious record collection.

Scarpia

#713
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 06:35:07 AM
Certainly it should, and indeed that was my point, and why his comment interests me. Does the reviewer (who nowhere mentions Kennedy, I think) imply that he thinks it should be a melodramatic outburst? I can't find any such implication.

He blames Hahn for "half hearted expression" then for failing to produce "magical wonder."   This is the sort of review which really puts me off the reviewer, blaming the performer because he did not experience the emotional reaction he wanted to experience at a certain point.  Frankly, I'm not interested in whether the reviewer experienced magical wonder, I'm interested in what the performance and recording sounded like.  I like reviews which are descriptive without being judgemental.

Hahn seemed more "magical" to me than Kennedy/Rattle, which struck me as rushed, mostly because Rattle didn't let the orchestra dwell on the low chord the resonates after the violin completes that initial statement.  If anything, Kennedy/Handley was the best at that particular point because Handley knew what he was doing there (noblissimente, and all that).  For me the entry is a point of repose before launching into the maelstrom and Hahn/Davis did it right, magical wonder notwithstanding.


DavidRoss

Gee whillikers!  Y'all keep talking about those durned records 'n' I just might have to listen to both of 'em to see fer muhsef who's got the inside track on magical wonder. 

Though I note that Achenbach (the gramophone reviewer who dissed Hahn's Elgar) lurves Kennedy/Rattle in the piece: http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%201998/28/746969/Elgars#header-logo  So is it any wonder that he's impervious to the charm of Hahn's comparative restraint?
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Scarpia

Hmmm, anyone have an opinion of Perlman/Barenboim?  The stakes are low in this game, I got the Kennedy for 80 cents, the Hahn for $4, and the Perlman can be had for $2.50.  Only the Bean cost me a kings ransom.

Elgarian

#716
Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 09:01:01 AM
Frankly, I'm not interested in whether the reviewer experienced magical wonder
Whenever you and I have a discussion I always feel that if there's a wrong end of the stick to be grasped, we will grasp it. To clarify, then: I'm not defending the reviewer, or his style of reviewing - merely observing that he has identified what I've always believed to be a key point in the concerto (which I too might consider calling 'magical'), and that he recognises that it needs very special treatment. That tells me that the reviewer may have an understanding of this concerto that I can relate to, and that's why I find his comments less derisory than you do - and therefore possibly useful to me, if not to you. And now, given that I haven't even heard this controversial recording yet (!), enough about this fellow and his magical wonder. Let's get to the music!

Elgarian

#717
Quote from: Scarpia on April 30, 2010, 11:19:47 AMOnly the Bean cost me a kings ransom.
It's been around so long now as a revered classic, that I suppose it's acquired antique value....

Scarpia

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 12:10:34 PM
Whenever you and I have a discussion I always feel that if there's a wrong end of the stick to be grasped, we will grasp it. To clarify, then: I'm not defending the reviewer, or his style of reviewing - merely observing that he has identified what I've always believed to be a key point in the concerto (which I too might consider calling 'magical'), and that he recognises that it needs very special treatment. That tells me that the reviewer may have an understanding of this concerto that I can relate to, and that's why I find his comments less derisory than you do - and therefore possibly useful to me, if not to you. And now, given that I haven't even heard this controversial recording yet (!), enough about this fellow and his magical wonder. Let's get to the music!

I am not anti-magical wonder.  But magical wonder is not a property of the music, it is a property of the person listening to the music. 

drogulus

     
     

     I didn't even know this recording existed until I read about it here. So I ordered it immediately from Amazon yoo kay. It's OOS, so I don't know how long it will take to get it.

     My take on the Kennedy and Bean interpretations of The Lark Ascending is that they occupy adjacent space in terms of emotion and overall approach. If I prefer Bean in this work it wouldn't say anything negative about Kennedy. I never listen to the other Lark's in my collection. Maybe I'll do that tonight since all my RVW is on the Pod.

     
Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 12:16:19 PM
It's been around so long now as a revered classic, that I suppose it's acquired antique value....

      I once conducted a search for Bean recordings and missed this one.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0