Elgar's Hillside

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

kishnevi

Quote from: Elgarian on April 30, 2010, 05:58:27 AM
Well, not having heard the recording I can't say anything directly about the piffleness coefficient of those reviews, but I'm concerned about statements like this:

'After the LSO's portentous opening to the work Hahn enters with limply defined tone and half-hearted expression. What should be a moment of magical wonder (identical almost to the soloists first entry in Beethoven's concerto) passes as nondescript ambivalence.'

The reviewer wins my sympathy by his recognition of how special that first violin entry is in this concerto (in fact I was talking about this in an earlier post, commenting on the sensitivity of Bean's first entry). 'Magical wonder' it is, indeed. So if he thinks Hahn hasn't captured that, it gives me pause. Doesn't mean I'll agree with him when I listen to it myself, but it's an interesting thing for him to say, from my point of view.

I played the Shaham/Zinman (CSO) recording again, and I think Shaham captures that first entry near perfect--almost (but not quite totally) organically growing out of the orchestra.  The next few minutes, and much of the first movement in general, can best be described as meditative or introspective, although the extrovert element gets its proper share in due course. 
Have not heard Mlle. Hahn, nor Messrs. Bean and Kennedy, so I have no idea of how Shaham compares head to head with them here.

Elgarian

Quote from: drogulus on April 30, 2010, 02:15:25 PM
My take on the Kennedy and Bean interpretations of The Lark Ascending is that they occupy adjacent space in terms of emotion and overall approach. If I prefer Bean in this work it wouldn't say anything negative about Kennedy.
An eminently reasonable approach to take, I'd say. I could certainly wonder how I'd view these two alternatives if history had switched, and I'd been introduced to the Elgar VC through Kennedy, years before I heard Bean. Unanswerable, of course.

I hope you manage to get the Bean VC - it's clear from your comments here that you know what to expect, so I think you'll find it worth the trouble to obtain it.

drogulus

       I received the order confirmation right away. They'll send me another notice when they ship it.

       The Hugh Bean recording of The Lark Ascending was my introduction to his playing more than 30 years ago. As I compared his approach to the piece to others I heard it occurred to me that the absence of certain virtuoso flourishes is the key.

      Would this be true in the Elgar Concerto as well? You might not think so. Elgar is not at all a "folkish" composer like Vaughan Williams. Yet the example of Nigel Kennedy's interpretation of the VC suggests that it pays to apply a rule of understatement by comparison to the norm for Continental composers.

      What about the Cello Concerto? What about Dupre/Barbirolli? I don't think any rule can cope with the example of what works. Second, I'm not referring to emotional intensity but rather the stylistic cues that virtuoso performers give off. Dupre uses a skinny vibrato, characteristically British to my ears. Or maybe it isn't British in any exclusive sense but often works well for British composers and not just EE and RVW. Why? I don't know, but one possible reason why I hear this understated way of playing as "correct" is my savage hatred of '80s hair bands and their wobbly vocal and guitar parts.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Elgarian

Quote from: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 06:52:08 AM
The Hugh Bean recording of The Lark Ascending was my introduction to his playing more than 30 years ago. As I compared his approach to the piece to others I heard it occurred to me that the absence of certain virtuoso flourishes is the key.
I think 'the absence of certain virtuoso flourishes' is indeed a feature - at least, it is for me, as for you. When Elgar is described as a Late Romantic, it's true of course, but that's by no means the end of the story. In the violin concerto the big contrast, for me, is not between extrovert display of feeling and introverted contemplation, but rather between the face that he presents to the world (including perhaps the face that he feels he ought to present), and all the inner misgivings, private soul-searchings, and so on. That's different to the sort of heart-on-sleeve emotional thrashing about and tearing-up-my-comics that one might be tempted to associate with Romanticism.

I find these things are really impossible to justify in any technical sense, but this is where Bean hits the mark, for me. It's the subtlety of Elgar's position that's so difficult to capture, but which Bean seems to understand. I can see why someone might complain about 'thin tone' or 'too much vibrato' as I think Eyeresist did earlier (not that I do, myself), but for me such things seem insignificant in comparison with the deep understanding of the personality of the music. If it were just Elgar pouring out his personal feelings, I think I'd find it tiresome; but what he seems to tap into is something universal - struggling to achieve a balance between what's expected of us by the world, and what we secretly long for, and anguish over. That ever-so-delicate line is one that Bean walks perfectly, I think.

QuoteWhat about the Cello Concerto? What about Dupre/Barbirolli?
Do you know Beatrice Harrison's cello concerto, with Elgar himself conducting? Despite the fact that du Pre has made the cello concerto entirely her own, it's Beatrice Harrison that I find myself returning to again and again - perhaps for its 'characteristic Englishness' as you put it.

QuoteElgar is not at all a "folkish" composer like Vaughan Williams.
Yes, although from the very beginning I've always grouped Elgar's Introduction and Allegro with RVW's Tallis Fantasia, as being closer together in spirit than almost any other pieces they wrote - and there are other examples. However, that's another story.

drogulus

Quote from: Elgarian on May 01, 2010, 07:47:11 AM


I can see why someone might complain about 'thin tone' or 'too much vibrato' as I think Eyeresist did earlier (not that I do, myself), but for me such things seem insignificant in comparison with the deep understanding of the personality of the music.

     Thin tone I understand, but too much vibrato? I need to hear this recording.


Quote from: Elgarian on May 01, 2010, 07:47:11 AM

Yes, although from the very beginning I've always grouped Elgar's Introduction and Allegro with RVW's Tallis Fantasia, as being closer together in spirit than almost any other pieces they wrote - and there are other examples. However, that's another story.
The first decade of the 20th century strikes me a compressed recapitulation of various strands in English music going back to the early Baroque. They were making up for lost time, as though the failure of English composers to figure internationally after the 17th century required the generations that came just before and after 1900 to reach back beyond that period for inspiration, or at least before 1750.

     You can add Holst's St. Paul's Suite in there, which dates from 1913.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Scarpia

Quote from: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 08:42:49 AM
     Thin tone I understand, but too much vibrato? I need to hear this recording.

This comment came from the poster whose signature solicits recordings with no vibrato.  I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive, but I doubt vibrato will be an issue.

Elgarian

Quote from: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 08:42:49 AM
     Thin tone I understand, but too much vibrato? I need to hear this recording.
See #680 for his exact description ('constant and niggling'). I should add that I don't find his vibrato at all intrusive or troublesome myself, but of course we all have different sensitivities and preferences for this sort of thing.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: drogulus on May 01, 2010, 08:42:49 AM
     Thin tone I understand, but too much vibrato? I need to hear this recording.

I promised myself I was not going to enter the fray again until I'd heard Bean. But I just want to note that Eyeresist initially was commenting on my reaction to Hahn vs. Chung when I made a direct comparison. I wrote:

QuoteHahn's tone disturbs me: very thin with a constant and same vibrato that becomes irritating...at least it irritated this morning. Chung is "feminine" too but with considerably more grit and a wider range of tonal shades.

In my case it isn't that I object to vibrato...I don't, I love it!...but that I found far more pleasure in the variety that Chung delivers. Whether I'll react as negatively to Bean as I did to Hahn...whether in fact Bean is actually anything like Hahn...well, I'll find out next week.

Sarge, always keeping an open mind
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

drogulus

Quote from: Scarpia on May 01, 2010, 09:01:06 AM
This comment came from the poster whose signature solicits recordings with no vibrato.  I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive, but I doubt vibrato will be an issue.


      Ah, I see. Now order is restored.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Elgarian

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 01, 2010, 09:17:41 AM
I found far more pleasure in the variety that Chung delivers.
I tried listening again to Chung/Solti this morning, Sarge, but stopped after the first movement because I wasn't enjoying Solti's approach at all. This could simply be due to me not being in the right mood, and I realise there's scope for all kinds of interpretations; but I couldn't hear the all-important nobilmente in Solti's interpretation: lots of drama and sweeping waves of emotionalism, but invariably seeming somehow unElgarian. I realise of course that I could just be too set in my ways... But I'm going to try again on another day; there was no point in persisting when I was so clearly not tuning in properly.

Scarpia

Quote from: Elgarian on May 01, 2010, 12:08:12 PM
I tried listening again to Chung/Solti this morning, Sarge, but stopped after the first movement because I wasn't enjoying Solti's approach at all. This could simply be due to me not being in the right mood, and I realise there's scope for all kinds of interpretations; but I couldn't hear the all-important nobilmente in Solti's interpretation: lots of drama and sweeping waves of emotionalism, but invariably seeming somehow unElgarian. I realise of course that I could just be too set in my ways... But I'm going to try again on another day; there was no point in persisting when I was so clearly not tuning in properly.

Listened to the first five minutes or so this morning in anticipation of hearing the entire Chung/Solti recording this evening.  My reaction was different, I did not find it suffered from the lack of nuance his much earlier recording of the symphonies did.  I also had a positive impression from Chung's playing.


DavidRoss

I heard Hahn's Elgar this morning.  No lack of emotion as I experience it:  pathos--all the more honest for its comparative restraint--but not bathos.  I don't hear uniform thin tone, either, nor lack of commitment.

"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Scarpia

Listened to the Chung/Solti in it's entirety, and had a positive impression.  I was pleasantly surprised that the overly aggressive performance that Solti gave the symphonies in his old recordings with the same ensemble was not repeated in the Violin concerto.  Solti did let the orchestra get a bit carried away in the big orchestral tutti which comes about 2/3 of the way through the first movement, but not enough to upset the equilibrium of the piece.  Chung is very good throughout.  However, I consistently don't find myself in the transports of ecstasy that I am supposed to during the long cadenza of the finale.  I am evidently missing something, but I find little in it to interest or engage me.

The one thing that I am noticing in my exploration of Elgar is a certain "sameness" in his works.  In Beethoven, for instance, each symphony is it's own sound world.  In Elgar the range is not so wide.  The major orchestral works are impressing me as painted from the same palette (although it is a rich palette).   Perhaps a similar criticism can be made of other composer of stature, such as Bruckner.

Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on May 02, 2010, 08:45:54 AM
I consistently don't find myself in the transports of ecstasy that I am supposed to during the long cadenza of the finale.
If you did, I'd suspect that you'd put the wrong CD in the player. Ecstasy is a long way off: think in terms of loss, bewilderment, despair, hope (and the fear that the hope is vain) - these are more the sort of things to expect as it shifts through its various moods. It took me years - seriously - to come to something like terms with that cadenza.

Scarpia

Quote from: Elgarian on May 02, 2010, 08:55:32 AM
If you did, I'd suspect that you'd put the wrong CD in the player. Ecstasy is a long way off: think in terms of loss, bewilderment, despair, hope (and the fear that the hope is vain) - these are more the sort of things to expect as it shifts through its various moods. It took me years - seriously - to come to something like terms with that cadenza.

Ok, I've got the bewilderment, that's a start.   ;D

drogulus

Quote from: Scarpia on May 02, 2010, 08:45:54 AM


The one thing that I am noticing in my exploration of Elgar is a certain "sameness" in his works.  In Beethoven, for instance, each symphony is it's own sound world.  In Elgar the range is not so wide.  The major orchestral works are impressing me as painted from the same palette (although it is a rich palette).   Perhaps a similar criticism can be made of other composer of stature, such as Bruckner.


      I agree about Elgar, and almost agree about Bruckner, though the masses and motets give one a wider perspective. Elgar's language is extraordinarily rich. I don't know whether this consistency counts as a weakness. I can see how it might, though.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

drogulus

#736
     I was prowling around in my Elgar collection and came across this recording which I have to recommend, though I'm sure it has been recommended before, possibly by me.

     

     This is my favorite recording of the Enigma as well as the Introduction and Allegro. The recordings were made in the Free Trade Hall in 1956, and the Enigma was recorded by the team of Robert Fine and Wilma Cozart. The CD was mastered by Michael J. Dutton. I've heard that the Andre Navarra performance of the Cello Concerto is quite good. At the moment it's unavailable to me since it didn't make it onto my PC. I'll have to look for the disc. Anyway many of these Phoenixa CDs are rapidly becoming rarities if they aren't already. This is one for the ages.

     
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Elgarian

Quote from: drogulus on May 02, 2010, 09:32:15 AM
I don't know whether this consistency counts as a weakness.
I suppose we must see whether it turns into a strangeness. (See how nimbly we leap from thread to thread!)

Seriously though, his ability to say so much within the limits of that 'consistency' (I'm not sure it's the right word, but it'll do for now) is part of the reason for my lifelong love of his music.

Scarpia

Quote from: drogulus on May 02, 2010, 11:11:16 AM
     I was prowling around in my Elgar collection and came across this recording which I have to recommend, though I'm sure it has been recommended before, possibly by me.

     

     This is my favorite recording of the Enigma as well as the Introduction and Allegro. The recordings were made in the Free Trade Hall in 1956, and the Enigma was recorded by the team of Robert Fine and Wilma Cozart. The CD was mastered by Michael J. Dutton. I've heard that the Andre Navarra performance of the Cello Concerto is quite good. At the moment it's unavailable to me since it didn't make it onto my PC. I'll have to look for the disc. Anyway many of these Phoenixa CDs are rapidly becoming rarities if they aren't already. This is one for the ages.

   

That rung a bell.  I forgot I have vinyl of Barbiroll/Halle on Mercury Living Presence (Dvorak) and I wonder what other undiscovered gems there are in the un-reissued Mercury catalog.   Almost all of the mono Mercuries were never issued on CD. 

Elgarian

I knew I still wasn't in the mood for Solti's Elgar today, but decided to blow the dust off this, which I haven't played for a long time:



Perhaps the most significant thing I can say is that very quickly I found myself no longer asking 'how is Takezawa tackling this?', but simply accepting what was on offer and losing myself in the music. She's recorded very upfront, but that's fine; and Colin Davis produces quite a satisfying warm, spacious orchestral bloom which swells and fades in the right way in the right places, pretty well. There are times when he produces a sound very reminiscent of aeolian harps - which is all to the good in this concerto. (Elgar had several aeolian harps which he liked to place in an open window - I think he even made one himself.) Colin Davis gets this 'aeolian' aspect particularly well at the famous moment when the cadenza begins, producing a deliciously spooky prickling of the hairs on the neck.

Takezawa plays with great confidence but also with great sensitivity; she captures some of the most heartbreaking moments of the cadenza very well - enough to evoke tears for this listener, at any rate. All in all, this recording doesn't deserve the relatively long neglect that I've given it. It won't displace Bean/Groves for me, but certainly it's a fine interpretation. Sadly it seems to be out of print now.