Elgar's Hillside

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Scarpia

#820
Quote from: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 03:16:09 PM
    Kennedy has an edge at the level of technique, which shows itself during the most difficult passages where Bean plays them slower.

My impression is that Kennedy makes his technical strength into a weakness, by letting it overshadow the expressive aspects of what he is playing.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 14, 2010, 03:21:48 PM
You're right of course. I think, technically, Kennedy is the superior fiddler. Whether he's more in tune with Elgar...well, that's the question I'm trying to resolve. Right now, it seems to me, a Korean woman wins the gold. But I have more listening to do.

Sarge

She is good, and Solti doesn't hurt.  A little more sensitivity, compared with his recording of the symphonies.


Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 03:22:03 PM
My impression is that Kennedy makes his technical strength into a weakness, by letting it overshadow the expressive aspects of what he is playing.

I don't agree, in either his performance of the Concerto or Sonata...but then, that's why classical music is so fun..it provokes such intense disagreement  ;D

QuoteShe is good, and Solti doesn't hurt.  A little more sensitivity, compared with his recording of the symphonies.

But it is nice, too, to agree on occasion  :)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

drogulus

Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 03:22:03 PM
My impression is that Kennedy makes his technical strength into a weakness, by letting it overshadow the expressive aspects of what he is playing.


     I don't agree, either. Not in the case of the Handley recording. I haven't heard the Rattle in too long to comment on it. It isn't even ripped yet. Oh...now it is.

     Both Bean and Kennedy would have been influenced by the example of Menuhin, I imagine. So I should explore that connection.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Sergeant Rock

#823
Quote from: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 04:39:10 PM
Both Bean and Kennedy would have been influenced by the example of Menuhin, I imagine. So I should explore that connection.

Of course! The Menuhin connection. I should get his recordings too.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

drogulus

#824
     

      This recording doesn't have the reputation of the 1929 recording Menuhin made when he was 16, with Elgar conducting. Still it should be interesting. I'd like to have the Delius, too.

       An odd note: On the Elgar recording above the concertmaster was Hugh Bean. And Nigel Kennedy attended Menuhin's school. So maybe Oswald wasn't the lone gunman after all. 
       
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on May 14, 2010, 03:22:03 PM
My impression is that Kennedy makes his technical strength into a weakness, by letting it overshadow the expressive aspects of what he is playing.
That's the flavour of my reaction to Kennedy's Elgar VC too, though I'm inclined to think that when I say that, I'm describing the kind of feelings I get, rather than responding to a genuine weakness of his. In other words, in broad terms I'm looking for a particular kind of approach (partly consciously and partly subconsciously), which Kennedy doesn't offer (he offers something else instead); and so to me it seems that he overdoes the technical fireworks aspect. If I'm wanting an apple and they give me an orange, I might get irritated by that, but it doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with the orange.

I'm encountering a similar problem with Hahn's version of the Elgar VC right now, having had the opportunity to listen to it yesterday. She definitely doesn't approach it in what I regard as 'the right spirit', but I'm not sure yet whether the problem lies with her playing or with my expectations.

Elgarian

Quote from: drogulus on May 14, 2010, 06:55:53 PM
     

      This recording doesn't have the reputation of the 1929 recording Menuhin made when he was 16, with Elgar conducting. Still it should be interesting.

There are very favourable old Gramophone reviews of it here:

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201966/45/792739/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61.+Yehudi+Menuhin+%28violin%29%2C+New+Philharmonia+Orchestra+conducted+by+Sir+Adrian+Boult.+HMV

and here:

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/May%201984/30/754912/ELGAR.+Violin+Concerto+in+B+minor%2C+Op.+61+Yehudi+e+Menuhin+%28yin%29+New+Philharmonia+Orches+tra++Sir+Adrian+Boult.+HMV+Concert+Classics

It's a lovely version, and no mistake; and listening to it a few days ago after a long period (years) of neglect, I was surprised to discover how very fine it is. It seems a lot more moving now than I thought it was, but of course all that's happened is that I have changed over the years. His cadenza really comes to grips with the broken-ness and heartache of the music, and Boult's control of the subtle but crucial orchestral accompaniment seems superb to these ears. It may be close to sacrilege to say it, but if the chips were down I'd choose this, Menuhin's later recording, with Boult, in preference to his classic recording with Elgar. (I just checked the Penguin Guide and discovered that they give it three stars and mark it out as a 'key' recording.)

abidoful

Quote from: 71 dB on May 14, 2010, 09:29:04 AM
Concert Allegro, Op. 46 is Elgar's best piano works but his other works for piano are nice too. I have these recordings of piano Elgar:

Maria Garzón (ASV) - Enigma Variations (original piano version), Concert Allegro etc.
David Owen Norris (Elgar Editions) - Vol 1 Solo Piano Music
Peter Pettinger (Chandos) -  Piano Music including Concert Allegro
Ashley Wass (Naxos) - Piano Music including Enigma Variations (original piano version)

The last two together give broad coveridge of Elgar's piano works.  ;)

If forced to choose only one, Pettinger would be my choice.

Thanks for recommending  :) Wating to take a plunge in to Sir Edward Elgar and finding some treasures...!

drogulus

#828
Quote from: Elgarian on May 15, 2010, 12:22:50 AM
That's the flavour of my reaction to Kennedy's Elgar VC too, though I'm inclined to think that when I say that, I'm describing the kind of feelings I get, rather than responding to a genuine weakness of his. In other words, in broad terms I'm looking for a particular kind of approach (partly consciously and partly subconsciously), which Kennedy doesn't offer (he offers something else instead); and so to me it seems that he overdoes the technical fireworks aspect. If I'm wanting an apple and they give me an orange, I might get irritated by that, but it doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with the orange.


      That sounds like me.

      It seems like Kennedy employs his formidable skills to their fullest in this work and I think he should because the concerto calls for it. Bean gets the result he does from an understanding of Elgar (and a particular history of performance). This allows him to make up for what I see as a deficit in his abilities by comparison with a virtuoso like Kennedy, who is also operating from the same tradition and training. I might prefer Bean in the concerto, all things considered, but in spite of his relative weakness and not because of it. As it happens I'm delighted with the Bean version and my reasons are what I give here. He knows how to play this music correctly (as I'm bound to hear it, given what I've absorbed from and about Elgar's music). So does Kennedy, which makes comparison interesting and not exactly the usual contrast of approaches.

     It throws into relief an issue which may otherwise be obscured. I've given thought to this in another context due to my continued amazement at the recordings that Barbirolli made with the Hallé Orchestra. Many of these recordings seemed poised on a knife edge between brilliance and incompetence without stopping at ho-hum. The shorthand way of dealing with this is to say that feeling trumps technique. I'd say it can, but a little more technique would definitely be helpful.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Elgarian

Quote from: drogulus on May 15, 2010, 07:15:27 AM
The shorthand way of dealing with this is to say that feeling trumps technique. I'd say it can, but a little more technique would definitely be helpful.
In this context, there's the nice little story I've quoted some few dozen posts ago, where Beatrice Harrison recalls Elgar saying to her before a performance of the cello concerto: 'Give it 'em, Beatrice. Don't worry about the notes or anything. Give 'em the spirit.'

drogulus

#830
Quote from: Elgarian on May 15, 2010, 07:49:06 AM
In this context, there's the nice little story I've quoted some few dozen posts ago, where Beatrice Harrison recalls Elgar saying to her before a performance of the cello concerto: 'Give it 'em, Beatrice. Don't worry about the notes or anything. Give 'em the spirit.'

     No, that was Ferneyhough, wasn't it?


     Certainly given his druthers Elgar would want the spirit and the notes. It may take a bit of listening to arrive at the position that the more technically gifted artist (in this case Kennedy) does not lack the proper spirit, he just has technique to burn in a work that is clearly designed to burn as much as can be summoned.

     Aww, I don't even like concertos. That is, I have to overcome my disposition to hear the kinds of display concertos exhibit typically as plumage to attract an audience of ooh- and ahhh-ers, who are not like me at all!
     
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Scarpia

#831
Just received the recording of the Elgar cello concerto that was highly recommended by David Ross (although he seems to be on hiatus from the boards after a very nasty dust-up on our alter-ego board, CMG).



I also have recordings of this concerto by Gastinel, du Pre, Navarro and Harrison.  (Amazing I have so many recordings and have never hear the piece!)  Can't decide whether to listen to this, or the violin sonata.

Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on May 19, 2010, 01:36:05 PM
Can't decide whether to listen to this, or the violin sonata.
You could take comfort in the fact that whichever you choose, you can't get it wrong.

drogulus

     Lovers of the Bean performance of the Violin Sonata might want to hear the String Quartet recording made by Bean's Music Group of London. I'm just getting to know this work, but my initial reaction is very favorable.
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:123.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/123.0
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0

Scarpia

First listen was quite pleasant, particularly the first movement.


Elgarian

Quote from: Scarpia on May 20, 2010, 11:21:04 PM
First listen was quite pleasant, particularly the first movement.


Encouraging start! (Be prepared for layers and layers to become apparent, the more you listen.)

Elgarian

Quote from: drogulus on May 20, 2010, 02:04:13 PM
     Lovers of the Bean performance of the Violin Sonata might want to hear the String Quartet recording made by Bean's Music Group of London. I'm just getting to know this work, but my initial reaction is very favorable.
All those chamber works represent Elgar at his best, in my view, and I agree, no one could go wrong with Bean's versions both of the violin sonata, and the quartet. The piano quintet is another superb work, but unfortunately I don't think there's a recording with Bean on it. At any rate, I've never encountered one.

Brahmsian

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 04:40:46 AM
and the Ehnes/A. Davis in my hands now.

Hi Sarge,

Regarding the Ehnes recording of Elgar's VC, how did you like it?

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Brahmsian on June 23, 2010, 10:09:21 AM
Hi Sarge,

Regarding the Ehnes recording of Elgar's VC, how did you like it?

I listened twice, thought it sounded very close to Kennedy, which disappoimted me...not because I dislike Kennedy/Handley (I do, it remains one of my favorites) but because I was hoping for something different.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Mirror Image

#839
Quote from: Scarpia on April 24, 2010, 10:27:07 PM
I'm afraid I'm in trouble again.  Listened to the violin concerto through twice (Kennedy/Rattle).  I just don't get it.  Such a beautiful opening, such a haunting theme, such wonderful harmonies, such a wonderful Straussian flourish from the horns.  Then the solo violin enters.  After stating the opening motif, to many notes.  Too, too many notes.  Incessant running up and down the finger board, to what effect?  What is Elgar trying to tell us?  The only message flashing through my brain is, "please make it stop!"  I'm evidently missing something here.

I feel very differently than you do. Most people just assume what they want to about this work or any work by Elgar and pass it off without giving it much of a chance. I'm not sure how much time you have spent with Elgar's "Violin Concerto," but many concerti have sections that are specifically composed for the soloist and Elgar's beautiful composition is no exception. Perhaps you just don't enjoy it, which is fine, but don't discount the composition because you don't "get it." There are plenty of people that do "get it." It's not Elgar's or the music's fault that you don't understand it.