Elgar's Hillside

[knight66]

If you read on, I think you will find that Scarpia had a Damasine conversion.

Mike

[Luke]

I feel very differently than you do. Most people just assume what they want to about this work or any work by Elgar and pass it off without giving it much of a chance. I'm not sure how much time you have spent with Elgar's "Violin Concerto," but many concerti have sections that specifically composed for the soloist and Elgar's beautiful composition is no exception. Perhaps you don't enjoy, which is fine, but don't discount the composition because you don't "get it." There are plenty of people that do "get it." It's not Elgar's or the music's fault that you don't understand it.

Umm, can't really speak for Scarpia, but I think he feels very differently about that piece now (as the subsequent pages of this thread reveal, if you go on to read them). In fact, he's spoken eloquently recently, on another thread, about how reading the thoughts of posters like Elgarian helped him find the key to this piece (or however it is best described). Thus demonstrating once again the value of an open mind (and I think you will be able to guess what I am thinking about....)

[Mirror Image]

Umm, can't really speak for Scarpia, but I think he feels very differently about that piece now (as the subsequent pages of this thread reveal, if you go on to read them). In fact, he's spoken eloquently recently, on another thread, about how reading the thoughts of posters like Elgarian helped him find the key to this piece (or however it is best described). Thus demonstrating once again the value of an open mind (and I think you will be able to guess what I am thinking about....)

Oh okay, I'm glad Scarpia enjoys this work now. There are many pages to this thread, so you have to excuse for not reading through them all. Yes, an open-mind is all it takes, but there are always instances where someone doesn't enjoy a piece of music, but the composer certainly isn't to be blamed for that of course.

I have expressed my dislike for the Second Viennese School of Music for years, but now, I find enjoyment in many of their compositions. All it took was for me to open my mind up. That said, I have to come to adore Berg's music in particular.

Anyway, I'm going to be listening to more Elgar over the course of the next few days, so I can become reaquinted with this fine composer.

[Elgarian]

There are plenty of people that do "get it." It's not Elgar's or the music's fault that you don't understand it.

I'm only echoing here what others have said already, but actually Scarpia's open-mindedness and steadily developing enjoyment and understanding of the VC (pretty well documented in this thread, as you'll find if you read on) was quite exciting to follow. There is, as you say, a lot to read in this thread - but it was one of the most rewarding forum conversations I've ever participated in, with a variety of opinions - very knowledgeable and sensitive opinions too - being expressed and contemplated. I think everyone (myself included) found themselves re-examining previously-held ideas about the violin concerto, and taking a fresh look at them.

[karlhenning]

TTT

Yes, this has been a fine and illumining discussion.

[Scarpia]

Another interesting Elgar experience.  Listened to this disc:

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(actually I have it as part of a boxed set).  Cockaigne is a wonderful piece depicting 19th century London, with lively, sentimental and "noble" themes with generous deployment of the resources of the overture.  The Enigma variations are well known to everyone on this thread, and both pieces benefit from beautiful recorded sound which allows you to hear every instrument of the orchestra with clarity.  Very nice.   But the reason I bring it up, there is the "Introduction and Allegro."  I listened to the piece in the Davis recording and thought, "well, that's a decent performance, but I remember the piece being a lot more interesting."  I wonder why I recall the Introduction and Allegro as being such a magnificent piece of music, and epitome of English music for strings.  Then, I remembered.

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I got the disc out, with a little anxiety that one of my "favorite" recordings would turn out to be a let-down.

My lord, you cannot believe the difference this performance makes!  Every phrase that just lays there like a limp noodle in the Davis performance, seemingly without purpose, jumps out of the air in Barbirolli's performance.  Barbirolli knows exactly how each phrase should be articulated, how it emerges from what precedes and how it prepares for what comes next.  He knows how each instrument contributes to every instant of glorious string sonority in this music.  Every note is alive.  Davis just doesn't understand how this music works.

For those who claim that having more than one recording of a piece is a waste of money and time because it doesn't matter, I challenge you to listen to this recording and any other recording and then say it doesn't matter.

And one final thought, if you haven't heard Barbirolli's Elgar, you haven't heard Elgar!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

And one final thought, if you haven't heard Barbirolli's Elgar, you haven't heard Elgar!

Agreed! I don't think Andrew Davis is an inspired Elgarian. Barbirolli is. And Boult - his EMI Second Symphony is, to my ears, superior to Barbirolli's.

[Luke]

What if you've heard Elgar's Elgar, have you heard Elgar then?

being facetious - thanks for that excellent post. Am tempted to go and put on that Barbirolli disc now, actually...

[Guido]

Is Falstaff his best orchestral work as he thought? It's mightily impressive, but I don't know the two symphonies at all well yet. Robin Holloway puts it (with Tapiola) as the greatest tone poem ever written.

[Luke]

He certainly does! I remember those two lectures... It's hardly ever talked about round here, is it, which is odd, given its quality. It certainly is a mighty piece, and a tender one too - I can't help but compare it to Strauss's portrait symphonic poems and think that Elgar comes off as the greater humanist of the two (Don Quixote excepted, but even then...)  I think those two, Tapiola and Falstaff, represent the two poles of what symphonic poem can do - there was never a landscape piece more purely elemental than the Sibelius, nor a portrait piece more rounded, complex and understanding than the Elgar. In that respect, Robin has a point, I think.

[Scarpia]

What if you've heard Elgar's Elgar, have you heard Elgar then?

If you call the transfers of those old shellac discs "hearing" I guess the answer is yes.   

But, on the other hand, we can't take for granted that the composer is the best conductor of his (or her) own music. 

[Klaatu]

Just my own silly take on the ending of Elgar's VC....

Once in a blue moon a piece of music brings to mind a really vivid mental picture or a literary reference. These occasions are few but very intense. Two examples:

1) My first hearing of the opening of Pettersson's 8th symphony immediately produced an image of a train, crowded with Jewish men, women and children on their way to an extermination camp. (Ever since that moment I've had no time for those who see Pettersson's music as "self-pitying" - to me it speaks of a composer's pity for others, and his furious anger at injustice.)

2) The beautiful flute solo that interrupts the dark, doom-laden pages of the finale of Mahler's Tenth is, for me, Thomas Hardy's poem The Darkling Thrush set to music. (The poem itself I find deeply moving; my association of it with Mahler's music is sufficient to make my eyes well up, and nowadays the passage has added poignancy since it reminds me of a dear friend who died last year; the flute was her instrument. The end of Mahler 10 has become one of those pieces of music which I both adore and find totally unbearable!)

Returning to the Elgar VC - the ending of the piece, where the soloist lingers yearningly over remembered themes from the earlier movements, and then sweeps on to an upbeat conclusion, always brings to my mind the last lines of D H Lawrence's Sons and Lovers:

She was the only thing that held him up, himself, amid all this. And she was gone, intermingled herself. He wanted her to touch him, have him alongside with her.

But no, he would not give in. Turning sharply, he walked towards the city's gold phosphorescence. His fists were shut, his mouth set fast. He would not take that direction, to the darkness, to follow her. He walked towards the faintly humming, glowing town, quickly.

A bit daft, maybe. But I hear these lines in my head - or rather, sense the emotion behind them - every time I hear the final pages of EE's lovely concerto.

[karlhenning]

Is Falstaff his best orchestral work as he thought? It's mightily impressive, but I don't know the two symphonies at all well yet. Robin Holloway puts it (with Tapiola) as the greatest tone poem ever written.

I'm just starting to warm to the symphonies, but I'd still call Falstaff a stand-out.

[71 dB]

But the reason I bring it up, there is the "Introduction and Allegro."  For those who claim that having more than one recording of a piece is a waste of money and time because it doesn't matter, I challenge you to listen to this recording and any other recording and then say it doesn't matter.

And one final thought, if you haven't heard Barbirolli's Elgar, you haven't heard Elgar!

I seem to have only three versions of this work:

Capella Istropolitana / Adrian Leaper / Naxos 8.550331
English String Orchestra / William Boughton / Nimbus NIM 5008
Hallé Orchestra / Mark Elder / CD HLL 7507

I am planning to buy the EMI 30CD box which contains Barbirolli. It seems that my wait has been for nothing since the price of that boxset just won't come down. 

[mc ukrneal]

I seem to have only three versions of this work:

Capella Istropolitana / Adrian Leaper / Naxos 8.550331
English String Orchestra / William Boughton / Nimbus NIM 5008
Hallé Orchestra / Mark Elder / CD HLL 7507

I am planning to buy the EMI 30CD box which contains Barbirolli. It seems that my wait has been for nothing since the price of that boxset just won't come down. 

Where are you looking? I see it is $45 at Amazon US and even as low as 33 pounds at Amazon UK.

[71 dB]

Where are you looking? I see it is $45 at Amazon US and even as low as 33 pounds at Amazon UK.

I hoped for getting it for 30 euros (£23+shipping).  After all, this is a supercheap re-re-release of old material...

[Mirror Image]

Agreed! I don't think Andrew Davis is an inspired Elgarian. Barbirolli is. And Boult - his EMI Second Symphony is, to my ears, superior to Barbirolli's.

I love Barbirolli's Elgar recordings. Those are my reference recordings even after all these years. Andrew Davis' Elgar is pretty good, but Sinopoli's is better and, of course, Boult as well.

[Scarpia]

I hoped for getting it for 30 euros (£23+shipping).  After all, this is a supercheap re-re-release of old material...

Let me explain how this works.  They make a certain number of them, they sit in their warehouse, then they run out.   It the publisher gets truly alarmed that they will never sell they may drop the price to an obscenely low level.  That's how I got a new copy of the EMI complete Richter edition for $5.  But if that was going to happen it would likely have happened already.  Do you think you will get a better deal when there are none left at the publisher?

[mc ukrneal]

I hoped for getting it for 30 euros (£23+shipping).  After all, this is a supercheap re-re-release of old material...

There is a MP france seller for EUR 34. $45 is close to EUR 33. In any case, it won't go down until you buy it - that's when they will have the sale! Never fails for me! 

[71 dB]

Let me explain how this works.  They make a certain number of them, they sit in their warehouse, then they run out.   It the publisher gets truly alarmed that they will never sell they may drop the price to an obscenely low level.  That's how I got a new copy of the EMI complete Richter edition for $5.  But if that was going to happen it would likely have happened already.  Do you think you will get a better deal when there are none left at the publisher?

Why are you so worried about my purchases? If I don't get a deal good enough I don't simply buy. That's what all people do all the time.