Elgar's Hillside

[Karl Henning]

Very interesting, Alan — and I appreciate the textual difficulties of the comparison!

[cilgwyn]

What an intriguing painting - I was prompted to look it up, and it was by somebody I didn't know of until now. I like it when labels do that

Indeed! To be honest,I think the only reason I bought the Hyperion cd of William Wallace's Symphonic poems was because of the interesting painting on the front. Back then,the internet was Science Fiction to me & the only way to find out who did the painting was to buy the cd.The Hyperion release of the Gothic is a pleasant reminder that Hyperion haven't lost their flair for eye catching cover art!

[cilgwyn]

Just a brief update as I dip into this box. I listened to Starlight Express yesterday. Now this is not my favourite Elgar - indeed, I can take it or leave it, really - and as far as these acoustic recordings of it are concerned, I think I might prefer to leave it. This may be a mere personal foible, but I found it harder to accommodate the voice, acoustically recorded, than the near-miraculous orchestral recordings I'd been listening to previously. The soprano in particular seemed to be squealing like a tortured cat.

So the arbitrary ratings record of my personal journey  through the box, so far:
Cockaigne, In The South, Violin Concerto: *****
Starlight Express: *

Interesting! The acoustic recording of 'The Starlight Express' is one of my favourite recordings by Elgar. I love it.So full of atmosphere. I just can't agree with you at all! Mind you,I actually PREFER the acoustic recordings to some of the later electrical recordings. But then I admit I have a bit of a thing for acoustic recordings Nikisch,Fried,Coates,et al (even Colonne!) are all very welcome visitors to my turntable.

[Leo K.]

I'm listening to Boult's recording of the 1st for the first time, and I'm amazed!



The way he shapes the musical phrases helps me understand and hear the form of this glorious music 

[Elgarian]

I'm listening to Boult's recording of the 1st for the first time, and I'm amazed!

The way he shapes the musical phrases helps me understand and hear the form of this glorious music 

I'm with you on this, which would certainly be among my favourite two or three interpretations of no. 1. (Not that I'm actually sure what the others would be...)

[Elgarian]

Interesting! The acoustic recording of 'The Starlight Express' is one of my favourite recordings by Elgar. I love it.So full of atmosphere. I just can't agree with you at all! Mind you,I actually PREFER the acoustic recordings to some of the later electrical recordings. But then I admit I have a bit of a thing for acoustic recordings Nikisch,Fried,Coates,et al (even Colonne!) are all very welcome visitors to my turntable.

The difficulty in this area is that there's even greater scope than usual for mere personal preference to swamp any other considerations. Since I don't have your penchant for acoustic recording per se (the things it does to the human voice are quite painful to me), and since Starlight is one of the bits of Elgar that doesn't interest me, I'm on a hiding to nothing in this case. I'm just making occasional personal notes on my journey through the contents of the box - I wouldn't want anyone to think I were claiming any objective insight into their merits.

[cilgwyn]

The difficulty in this area is that there's even greater scope than usual for mere personal preference to swamp any other considerations. Since I don't have your penchant for acoustic recording per se (the things it does to the human voice are quite painful to me), and since Starlight is one of the bits of Elgar that doesn't interest me, I'm on a hiding to nothing in this case. I'm just making occasional personal notes on my journey through the contents of the box - I wouldn't want anyone to think I were claiming any objective insight into their merits.

That's fine by me. I was just putting in a good word for them that's all! I also,like the recording of 'The Fringes of the Fleet!' Very evocative to my ears,but certainly not the most essential recordings in the set!!! Either way,that is quite an Xmas box! There I was wondering whether I would live long enough to see those recordings re released. What a treat! Meanwhile,I'm still 'waiting' for my copy.Unfortunately,I'm also waiting for new bank cards. If they don't turn up soon I think I'm going to have to dig out ye olde cheque book!

[Leo K.]

I'm LOVING this recording of the 1st symphony. I'm a fan of Sinopoli's Mahler 6th, so I thought why not try this?

[eyeresist]

Hey! Where's your Amazon link? 

[Mirror Image]

Hey! Where's your Amazon link? 

Sinopoli's Elgar recordings of the first and second symphonies can be enjoyed as a 2-CD set:

[asin]B000024ZB1[/asin]

[Sergeant Rock]

Sinopoli's Elgar recordings of the first and second symphonies can be enjoyed as a 2-CD set:

Yes, Sinopoli's Second can be enjoyed, or suffered through, depending... 

I'm in the former camp.

Sarge

[starrynight]

There was an episode on Elgar's first symphony in the short Discovering Music program on Radio 3.

Stephen Johnson described what he saw as the schizophrenic aspect of Elgar's personality, and how it was similar to Schumann who he admired.  He compared the noble opening theme with the turbulent allegro and said this showed Elgar combining opposite tendencies in the symphony, alongside his use of very distant keys in the same work.  Then he described how the thematic transformations in his view saw Elgar reconciling these opposing tendencies.

[Elgarian]

There was an episode on Elgar's first symphony in the short Discovering Music program on Radio 3.

Stephen Johnson described what he saw as the schizophrenic aspect of Elgar's personality, and how it was similar to Schumann who he admired.  He compared the noble opening theme with the turbulent allegro and said this showed Elgar combining opposite tendencies in the symphony, alongside his use of very distant keys in the same work.  Then he described how the thematic transformations in his view saw Elgar reconciling these opposing tendencies.

There's much in this, though I think the 'schizophrenic' label is misleading. It's right to identify the bringing together of opposite tendencies, but that isn't schizophrenic - it's more like an analogy for the dialectical process in logical discussion. The musical resolution of the two opposites - which one might think of as a kind of synthesis (though I haven't thought this through in logical detail) - comes towards the close of the final movement, when the militaristic march-like theme is transformed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar (something I've tried to draw attention to many times here). Only then, only after having demonstrated that a synthesis is possible, can he bring the symphony to its optimistic, life-affirming close.

[Karl Henning]

There's much in this, though I think the 'schizophrenic' label is misleading. It's right to identify the bringing together of opposite tendencies, but that isn't schizophrenic - it's more like an analogy for the dialectical process in logical discussion. The musical resolution of the two opposites - which one might think of as a kind of synthesis (though I haven't thought this through in logical detail) - comes towards the close of the final movement, when the militaristic march-like theme is transformed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar (something I've tried to draw attention to many times here).

And this refers back to the rhetorical origins of the sonata-allegro design.

[starrynight]

There's much in this, though I think the 'schizophrenic' label is misleading. It's right to identify the bringing together of opposite tendencies, but that isn't schizophrenic - it's more like an analogy for the dialectical process in logical discussion. The musical resolution of the two opposites - which one might think of as a kind of synthesis (though I haven't thought this through in logical detail) - comes towards the close of the final movement, when the militaristic march-like theme is transformed into one of the most exquisite passages in all of Elgar (something I've tried to draw attention to many times here). Only then, only after having demonstrated that a synthesis is possible, can he bring the symphony to its optimistic, life-affirming close.

Yes he described that moment as visionary, and it is brilliant of course.  I do find a bit of wistfulness, like the sadness of time gone, in that moment though, just like (though to a lesser extent) in the middle section of the second movement.  The mysterious sounding transitions in the piece I suppose link back to earlier composers like Beethoven in his 5th.  Moments like that are so deeply felt that they feel like they naturally lead to a change in the music. 

He also pointed out how the slow movement has a certain poignancy for the unattainable and isn't simply peaceful, which is true I'm sure.  Though he didn't explain why he also said the end wasn't always seen as completely triumphant.  With all those outbursts around the theme it might feel like the theme is struggling through them maybe?  Anyway he compared that to a great ship sailing through rough waters.  He also drew attention to the brilliant end of the slow movement which he described as poetic.  The last movement tends to remind me of the last part of Tchaikovsky 5 for some reason, probably the mix of great drama, lyricism and melody.

He brought attention to the fact that Elgar even at the height of his fame seemed depressive sometimes.  Certainly contrasts are a natural part of sonata form as it developed anyway and I suppose they were pushed to even greater extremes during the romantic period.  It does feel a very personal work though, even though the opening theme might initially suggest it will not be quite like that.

One interesting point was how he saw the transformation of the slow 2nd movement into the slow movement as representing the tributary slowing down before it joined into the main river.  He did like to view the music as images, which I suppose is an appropriately romantic view of the music.  However that might have been the point where he stretched things the most in his analysis, not quite sure about that idea.    But otherwise he didn't over-interpret much I thought and kept to the music quite well.

[Elgarian]

And this refers back to the rhetorical origins of the sonata-allegro design.

Said with penetrating clarity, Dr Henning!

[Elgarian]

Yes he described that moment as visionary, and it is brilliant of course.  I do find a bit of wistfulness, like the sadness of time gone, in that moment though, just like (though to a lesser extent) in the middle section of the second movement.  The mysterious sounding transitions in the piece I suppose link back to earlier composers like Beethoven in his 5th.  Moments like that are so deeply felt that they feel like they naturally lead to a change in the music. 

He also pointed out how the slow movement has a certain poignancy for the unattainable and isn't simply peaceful, which is true I'm sure.  Though he didn't explain why he also said the end wasn't always seen as completely triumphant.  With all those outbursts around the theme it might feel like the theme is struggling through them maybe?  Anyway he compared that to a great ship sailing through rough waters.  He also drew attention to the brilliant end of the slow movement which he described as poetic.  The last movement tends to remind me of the last part of Tchaikovsky 5 for some reason, probably the mix of great drama, lyricism and melody.

He brought attention to the fact that Elgar even at the height of his fame seemed depressive sometimes.  Certainly contrasts are a natural part of sonata form as it developed anyway and I suppose they were pushed to even greater extremes during the romantic period.  It does feel a very personal work though, even though the opening theme might initially suggest it will not be quite like that.

One interesting point was how he saw the transformation of the slow 2nd movement into the slow movement as representing the tributary slowing down before it joined into the main river.  He did like to view the music as images, which I suppose is an appropriately romantic view of the music.  However that might have been the point where he stretched things the most in his analysis, not quite sure about that idea.    But otherwise he didn't over-interpret much I thought and kept to the music quite well.

These are pretty well all good things to say, aren't they? Just to pick up a couple of points and run with them - we know that Elgar had bouts of depression - especially after just completing a major work. He often seemed to be dismayed by what he'd done. One the other hand, I'm not sure we should read too much of that (particularly the post-compositional depression) into his music. We get sadness - profound sadness - expressed (thinking of Spirit of England and the cello concerto as examples); but not depression I think. I can't think of any major work by Elgar, offhand, that expresses the kind of negativity associated with depression. (There's that very weird song 'Owls' which might make an exception.)

I think that river analogy is OK actually. We know Elgar made those kinds of connections himself, even when instructing orchestras he was conducting ('Play this like something you might hear down by the river'); so I reckon we ought to be free to talk in those terms if it seems to shed light on what's going on.

Sounds like a really interesting programme, actually. Thanks for telling us about it.

[raduneo]

Can someone help me to find a good recording of Elgar's Violin Concerto with GOOD SOUND QUALITY?

I have Campoli which I like, BUT the sound isn't that good (it's not particularly bad but it is not what I am aiming for). I hear good things about Sammons, but the sound quality leaves to be desired. Likewise for Heifetz and Menuhin.

I do appreciate Hugh Bean for his restraint and his emphasis of the integrity of Elgar's vision, but I am not so sure it is the ideal rendition.

Should I consider Hilary Hahn? Nigel Kennedy?

Thank you in advance!!

[Karl Henning]

Personally, I prefer Kennedy to la Hahn.

[Elgarian]

Can someone help me to find a good recording of Elgar's Violin Concerto with GOOD SOUND QUALITY?

I have Campoli which I like, BUT the sound isn't that good (it's not particularly bad but it is not what I am aiming for). I hear good things about Sammons, but the sound quality leaves to be desired. Likewise for Heifetz and Menuhin.

I do appreciate Hugh Bean for his restraint and his emphasis of the integrity of Elgar's vision, but I am not so sure it is the ideal rendition.

Should I consider Hilary Hahn? Nigel Kennedy?

Thank you in advance!!

I know some folks do enjoy Hahn's recording, but I agree with Karl. I find she makes the concerto seem pretty, and misses the soul of it. Of the fifteen or so recordings I know, I find Hahn's  the least satisfactory.

If you feel there's more to the VC than is found in Bean's account of it, there are certainly some very fine (and very different) alternatives to try. A particular favourite of mine is this one, with Dong-Suk Kang and Adrian Leaper:



This is about as far from Bean as you can get: it's the 'Elgar's Windflower Meets the Raggle-Taggle Gypsies' version. What Elgar (not to mention Alice Stuart Wortley) would have thought of this interpretation I can't say, but I find it fascinating.

For yet another, again very different, approach, you could do a lot worse than the recently released version by Tasmin Little:



Listening to this makes one aware, for example, of how much Hilary Hahn misses the mark. Tasmin Little's is a deeply thoughtful and mature performance, full of nuance and - I think - a real understanding of Elgar's particular response to the feminine. I find that's essential. While there are passages in the VC that invite the display of virtuosity, mere fireworks obscure Elgar's intentions (well, such as I understand them, anyway), and Little seems to get the balance just right. The recording quality is warm and very satisfying too. If I had to give away most of my Elgar violin concerto recordings, Tasmin Little's would be among the last to go, along with Bean and Kang.