Elgar's Hillside

[Elgarian]

As time passed, however, my suspicion that the symphonies were grossly overblown was confirmed when I read Sir Thomas Beecham's comment that the 1st reminded him of the musical equivalent of St. Pancras Station. Although Sir Thomas was noted for his outrageous but not entirely and untrue remarks remarks on music, I saw at once what my subconscious had been trying to suppress and I haven't listened to them since.

May I quibble? I do understand that both you and Sir Thomas respond similarly to the symphonies, and it's the kind of comment that's not uncommonly made about them. They do (particularly the 1st) inescapably carry with them something of the period Zeitgeist, and that turns many people off, permanently. Indeed I myself experience related problems elsewhere, and usually can't get past it. But I tend to find that when it happens to me, it seems to be more a problem of 'the beholder's share', rather than one intrinsic to the music.

So when you describe the symphonies themselves as being 'grossly overblown', I have to wonder about that. I can't hear them as overblown, not even slightly. I've never heard it, or even suspected a whiff of it, in 50 years of listening. I never find myself wishing there was more of this, or less of that. I'd like to make clear that I'm not suggesting I'm right and you're wrong. You know what you know and you like what you like, and there's an end on't. But do you think that in describing them as 'grossly overblown' you're telling us about something intrinsic to the symphonies, or about how your personal preferences incline you to respond to them? If the latter, then I nod in sympathetic understanding. If the former, then I respectfully disagree with both you and Sir Thomas.

[Beaumarchais]

May I quibble? I do understand that both you and Sir Thomas respond similarly to the symphonies, and it's the kind of comment that's not uncommonly made about them. They do (particularly the 1st) inescapably carry with them something of the period Zeitgeist, and that turns many people off, permanently. Indeed I myself experience related problems elsewhere, and usually can't get past it. But I tend to find that when it happens to me, it seems to be more a problem of 'the beholder's share', rather than one intrinsic to the music.

So when you describe the symphonies themselves as being 'grossly overblown', I have to wonder about that. I can't hear them as overblown, not even slightly. I've never heard it, or even suspected a whiff of it, in 50 years of listening. I never find myself wishing there was more of this, or less of that. I'd like to make clear that I'm not suggesting I'm right and you're wrong. You know what you know and you like what you like, and there's an end on't. But do you think that in describing them as 'grossly overblown' you're telling us about something intrinsic to the symphonies, or about how your personal preferences incline you to respond to them? If the latter, then I nod in sympathetic understanding. If the former, then I respectfully disagree with both you and Sir Thomas.

I should point out that I reached my conclusion on the symphonies after repeated listenings and that it gradually dawned on me that they were portentous, which is another way of saying overblown.
Overblown has several connotations among which are: overwritten, extravagant, florid, grandiose, pompous, over-elaborate, flowery, overwrought, overripe, pretentious, high-flown, turgid, bombastic, oratorical, grandiloquent, magniloquent, orotund. It is a matter of choice which epithet one chooses but to my mind 'turgid' seems appropriate in relation to both works.

[Karl Henning]

I think that, in comparison to (say) a Haydn symphony, they are grander.  Which denigrates neither "Papa" nor Elgar.

It is a matter of choice which epithet one chooses [...]

Not merely choice but a matter of disinclination, I think.  I decline to choose any of those rather hostile adjectives, thanks.

[Mirror Image]

I should point out that I reached my conclusion on the symphonies after repeated listenings and that it gradually dawned on me that they were portentous, which is another way of saying overblown.
Overblown has several connotations among which are: overwritten, extravagant, florid, grandiose, pompous, over-elaborate, flowery, overwrought, overripe, pretentious, high-flown, turgid, bombastic, oratorical, grandiloquent, magniloquent, orotund. It is a matter of choice which epithet one chooses but to my mind 'turgid' seems appropriate in relation to both works.

Okay, so you don't like the symphonies. So what? Why would you even feel the need to broadcast it amongst many others who do on the composer's own thread?

[Elgarian]

I should point out that I reached my conclusion on the symphonies after repeated listenings and that it gradually dawned on me that they were portentous, which is another way of saying overblown.
Overblown has several connotations among which are: overwritten, extravagant, florid, grandiose, pompous, over-elaborate, flowery, overwrought, overripe, pretentious, high-flown, turgid, bombastic, oratorical, grandiloquent, magniloquent, orotund. It is a matter of choice which epithet one chooses but to my mind 'turgid' seems appropriate in relation to both works.

I do understand that a variety of adjectives can be summoned as alternatives to 'overblown', but I can't help observing that you didn't answer my question.

The thing is - we can all dislike a piece of music for a whole raft of reasons; but if we don't try to distinguish between the intrinsic nature of the music and our own 'listener's share', then I'm not sure that we're doing anything more significant than comparing our fondness, or otherwise, for bananas. Not that such a debate may not be entertaining (especially if Karl were involved in it); but among all the fun I think we'd discover more about ourselves than about bananas.

[Hiker]

Beecham could not be more wrong. It's definitely Paddington.

[71 dB]

Okay, so you don't like the symphonies. So what? Why would you even feel the need to broadcast it amongst many others who do on the composer's own thread?

Because we are mistaken and we are wrong thinking those symphonies are any good. All that pleasure we have had listening to them has been a delusion. We should admit Elgar was a bad composer who didn't know how to write proper symphonies so he wrote those overblown earsores instead. It's important some besserwissers come online to tell us the music we enjoy isn't really good and we should stop enjoying it. Otherwise we enjoy THE WRONG MUSIC the rest of our pathetic life.

[Mirror Image]

Because we are mistaken and we are wrong thinking those symphonies are any good. All that pleasure we have had listening to them has been a delusion. We should admit Elgar was a bad composer who didn't know how to write proper symphonies so he wrote those overblown earsores instead. It's important some besserwissers come online to tell us the music we enjoy isn't really good and we should stop enjoying it. Otherwise we enjoy THE WRONG MUSIC the rest of our pathetic life.

I love listening to 'wrong music.' It makes the days go by.

[André]

I have just finished the 19-disc Boult box. Probably the most engrossing single composer-interpreter box I have come across. 3 Alassios -2 VC, 3 VcelloC, 2 Symph 1, 3 symph 2, 2 Falstaffs, 4 Enigmas or is it the other way around ? 

In any case, no single composer compilation is more engrossing that this one, pairing as it does the Bocuse of English chefs in his repertory of choice. Hurrah E.D.U !! Among 1900-1950 composers, only Mahler, RVW, Ravel and Sibelius are worthy of the same praise.

That being said, I think I can understand the underlying current running through Beaumarchais' list of epithets. I *did* experience a bit of listening fatigue when listening to the outer movements (esp. the finale) of the 2nd symphony. But you know what? That feeling came in reverse order of listening, from the most recent to the oldest versions. IOW the faster (older) the version, the more "overwritten" and "oratorical" it came across. Thence, the wiser, older, slower, more amicable and smiling Boult felt just right compared to his faster, more impatient (true, I admit) self from 30 years ago.

[Elgarian]

I love listening to 'wrong music.' It makes the days go by.

Nice one. Made me chuckle.

[Elgarian]

It's important some besserwissers come online to tell us the music we enjoy isn't really good and we should stop enjoying it. Otherwise we enjoy THE WRONG MUSIC the rest of our pathetic life.

So did this. Good morning chaps, and nobilmente does it!

[Beaumarchais]

My comments on Elgar's symphonies were made in response to the original poster's request for opinions on the composer's music and which also points out that a previous attempt led to a less than objective assessment:

Now, let me say from the outset that I sincerely hope we can have a thread to discuss the life and works of this composer (as we do for so many others), without the insane bickering and backbiting that caused the 'Sir Edward Elgar' thread to get locked. We've been there, done that - let's move on.

At no point have I suggested that the symphonies should not be enjoyed by others or that my opinion is anything other than my own, with the exception of the late Sir Thomas Beecham, and if you think that the symphonies are splendid that's fine by me.
As I have pointed out, there are works by Elgar that I have admiration for and thoroughly enjoy but the symphonies are not among them.

[TheGSMoeller]

I guess one thing learned from this thread is... Nobody puts Elgar in the corner.  0:)

Or more accurately... Nobody puts Elgar's symphonies in the corner. 

[Karl Henning]

As I have pointed out, there are works by Elgar that I have admiration for and thoroughly enjoy but the symphonies are not among them.

Fairly spoken;  and I can understand this.  I was a while warming to the symphonies myself.

[Elgarian]

there are works by Elgar that I have admiration for and thoroughly enjoy but the symphonies are not among them.

Ah, different matter entirely. No one (certainly not I) could sensibly quibble with this statement.

[Mirror Image]

As I have pointed out, there are works by Elgar that I have admiration for and thoroughly enjoy but the symphonies are not among them.

Fair enough. How about discussing the works of Elgar's that you do enjoy then? Wouldn't you agree this would be a more positive approach and encourage discussion rather than simply saying you dislike this or that work?

[Beaumarchais]

Fair enough. How about discussing the works of Elgar's that you do enjoy then? Wouldn't you agree this would be a more positive approach and encourage discussion rather than simply saying you dislike this or that work?

I would be pleased to discuss those works that I enjoy and they include the Serenade for Strings which is given a heartfelt performance here:

http://youtu.be/U7OepiN7zgY

Apart from the Enigma Variations, other's include:

The Wand of Youth Suite No.2

Sea Pictures

Overture In the South

Pomp and Circumstance marches

Overture Cockaigne

Chanson de Matin

Salut d'amour

As can be seen, I prefer Elgar's shorter works to his large scale compositions which, in my view, are
unsustainable. I'm not referring here to his large scale choral compositions such as Gerontius, The Apostles etc. that may be of a different order and of which I have no experience but strictly to his orchestral works.
In saying that, I consider The Enigma Variations to be one of the greatest compositions ever written.

[Sergeant Rock]

I prefer Elgar's shorter works to his large scale compositions which, in my view, are unsustainable.

What Late Romantic symphonies are sustainable in your opinion?

Sarge

[Christo]

  Sustainability is a fine criterium. Obvious candidates are Strauss' Alpine Symphony (Eine Alphensymphonie), Hausegger's Nature Symphony (Natursymphonie), and about the complete Raff cycle (who, as a Swiss composer, had practically no way of escape from the theme). 

[Beaumarchais]

What Late Romantic symphonies are sustainable in your opinion?

Sarge

Well first and foremost, Richard Strauss's Eine Alpensinfonie followed by Gustav Mahler's Symphonies Nos. 5, 6 & 8 but we must not forget Rachmaninoff's symphonies 1 & 2, of which I prefer No.1. I might also add a particularly personal favourite in Saint Saens mighty Symphony No.3 and the Sibelius symphonies Nos. 1,2,5 and 7.