Mozart operas

Started by Harry, September 20, 2007, 02:17:55 AM

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Mozart

#100
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on October 09, 2007, 10:30:34 AM
Why the operas give you trouble when the piano concertos don't is a puzzlement to me. Not only because it's the same composer, but because the slow movements of many of the piano concertos can well be described as instrumental arias.
Oh POO! This topic was to good for me to ignore and I was ready to burst with arguments all over 71db, but that was my main one :( I see pc21 as a mini opera. How can someone not like Figaro? Which opera covers so many characters and their emotions so perfectly? Would you ever imagine going into an opera that you could empathize with a housewife? (is empathize a word? I feared I made it up but it wasn't underlined in red so...) Doesn't Cherubino remind you what it was like to be 13?

Figaro is probably the only opera I have ever laughed out loud to. Is there an opera more full of comedy? The first act trio never fails to crack me up. The 2nd act...the third...sua madre? suo padre? haha its hilarious! The mixture of drama and timing of the music...yeah ok im done its genius. If it weren't for figaro I would have never gotten into opera. Give it another chance.

Although...after reading this
QuoteAlso, the sung melodies do not make much sense to me (very weird as I consider Mozart one of the best melodist ever).
I take it back. Don't give it another chance because if you truly believe that you will never enjoy it. ANd without enjoying Mozart's operas, you can't fully enjoy Mozart's instrumental music so just stay away from my man ;)

Harry

You are quite a lively fellow. ;D

Mozart

Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2007, 12:59:42 AM
You are quite a lively fellow. ;D

Someone telling me they don't enjoy Figaro has the same effect as me drinking 3 red bulls after 3 shots of espresso. Just don't do it :)

Harry

Okay I will do something else to tickle you into convulsions.
I have a hard time liking the operas in general, and since I started a short while ago with the ones from Mozart, those first.
A few of the performances I heard so far have gone in the bin resolutely, why keep crap, right?
DG will be good to listen too, if I find something I like. I don't like big voices with undue vibrato, but that you did know too.
Well the new Rene Jacobs is exactly a performance that would go in the bin with me.
Why?
Two reasons!
Alexandrina Pendatshanska & Olga Pasichyk.
Such unnatural voices! Only my two cents, of course.
Funny enough I find the men and their singing quite invigorating, although is there a Heldentenor around?

Mozart

Can anyone explain all the masonic symbolism in the Magic Flute? I had the first scene explained to me and I was shocked how full of symbolism it actually is. One question I have always had is why does the queen send the 3 boys who work for Sarastro to guide Tamino and Papageno?

71 dB

Quote from: DavidW on October 09, 2007, 03:26:50 PM
He's just an attention whore.  Elgar, you like Dittersdorf, so your taste is sufficiently eccentric to be worthless to conventional listeners like me.  Enjoy your zaniness!  Relish it!  Don't expect people to conform to your taste since you are the non-conformist.  And stop looking for us to react against you as well.  It's tiresome, there are more interesting ways of conversely with your posters that do not involve flamebait. ::) 

Call me what you want. I told how I feel about Mozart operas in a humble way without mocking the taste of others. Did you know that most people on Earth would not care less about Mozart's operas, Dittersdorf or even Elgar? Yes, my taste is eccentric but what's negative about it? At least I find my own favorites with open mind without brainwashing!

Conventional listener? What the heck is that? A standard? If you want to be conventional or normal then be but don't think it makes you better than eccentric listeners like me.

Are you saying the position of Mozart's operas can't be questioned? What are afraid of? That Mozart's operas won't survive my criticism? I see frightening amount of "religious" attitude on this forum, worship of canonic works and ignore of obscure works/composers.

I like Mozart more than Dittersdorf. I am just hinting Dittersdorf should not be ignored. Music 20 % worse than Mozart is still great. Dittersdorf has personality in his music I like a lot. 
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Mozart

QuoteAt least I find my own favorites with open mind without brainwashing!

Are you sure thats safe? Maybe you should consider a check up :D

Larry Rinkel

Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2007, 03:23:05 AM
Call me what you want. I told how I feel about Mozart operas in a humble way without mocking the taste of others. Did you know that most people on Earth would not care less about Mozart's operas, Dittersdorf or even Elgar? Yes, my taste is eccentric but what's negative about it? At least I find my own favorites with open mind without brainwashing!

Conventional listener? What the heck is that? A standard? If you want to be conventional or normal then be but don't think it makes you better than eccentric listeners like me.

Are you saying the position of Mozart's operas can't be questioned? What are afraid of? That Mozart's operas won't survive my criticism? I see frightening amount of "religious" attitude on this forum, worship of canonic works and ignore of obscure works/composers.

I like Mozart more than Dittersdorf. I am just hinting Dittersdorf should not be ignored. Music 20 % worse than Mozart is still great. Dittersdorf has personality in his music I like a lot. 

Please. Let's cut the crap about the brainwashing and all the rest. And we all know exactly where you're going with this. An overwhelming majority of musically sensitive listeners over the centuries, starting with Mozart's great contemporary Josef Haydn, have found his operas to be exceptionally fine works worthy of particular love and affection. Not Dittersdorf's operas, not even Haydn's, but Mozart's. Before you start going on and on about "religious" attitudes and such, it behooves you in my opinion to get a better understanding of why these works are so admired. Then, if you have reservations about them, you'll be in a better position to state them a bit more dispassionately. (For example, one can love Don Giovanni intensely while being aware of many deep flaws in it.)

Harry

Dear Poju, I rather agree with Larry, so please try to discuss this in less provocative tones, as not to wreck this thread.
I know you are of good will, and I know you can, so be a good chap, okay? :)

Harry

Mozart

Quote(For example, one can love Don Giovanni intensely while being aware of many deep flaws in it.)

Pardon?

longears

Hooligan's new, but surely you other guys have seen enough of dB71 to know that either he's a troll playing at being contrarian and impossibly dense, or he suffers from a severe handicap.  In either case, it is pointless to reason with him, or to expect reasonableness from him.  However, I've learned more than a few things from folks trying to teach him something, so please continue the effort if it pleases you...just know what you're dealing with and don't expect to make any headway and you'll save yourselves a lot of frustration!


71 dB

Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2007, 04:33:13 AM
Dear Poju, I rather agree with Larry, so please try to discuss this in less provocative tones, as not to wreck this thread.
I know you are of good will, and I know you can, so be a good chap, okay? :)

Harry

I am not conservative hence I am provocative. I don't try to wreck anything.
I really am lost with Mozart's operas like some people are with Elgar's symphonies.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

karlhenning

There seems to be some degree of artistic quibble with the "moralizing" conclusion to Don Giovanni.  OTOH, considering the way that Stravinsky & Auden 'celebrated' that sort of 'observational framework' with a similar upbeat conclusion to The Rake's Progress . . . I think of it just as one of the layers of 'staginess'.  Sure, many interesting changes have been made in the operatic world in the interests of "truth to drama" (as each age perceives that particular moving target), but the fact is, that when you have people singing the drama, the spectacle operates in ways very other than Hamlet, or The Importance of Being Earnest, or A Streetcar Named Desire.

Harry

Quote from: 71 dB on October 10, 2007, 04:55:51 AM
I am not conservative hence I am provocative. I don't try to wreck anything.
I really am lost with Mozart's operas like some people are with Elgar's symphonies.

I understand that you think that, but you must have read by now, that somehow this impression of being the odd one out, is not going down well on GMG. The fact that you know your self to be provocative is a first step towards a more peaceful approach right?
Of course I know that you are not consciously trying to wreck anything, but it happens anyway, so lets get back to talk within reason about the dislikes or likes of Mozart's operas. :)
If it helps, I feel rather lost too, with the operas, so there you are.
Not about Elgar however.
Harry

karlhenning

Quote from: Harry on October 10, 2007, 05:12:17 AM
If it helps, I feel rather lost too, with the operas, so there you are.
Not about Elgar however.


But you are a sensible chap, Harry, and you know that the contrarian facts, that Mozart's operas are generally held to be among the very finest accomplishments in that genre, where no such high esteem is attached to Elgar's symphonies (save by frank Elgarmaniacs), are not to be set aside simply as "conspiracy" or "brain washing" or "lack of free-thinking."

Haffner

Quote from: Harry on October 01, 2007, 03:53:31 AM
And also on this one, I would like comments.



This one is very good. You know, Harry, since I recall your liking Sir Marriner, please accept my reccomendation of his "Zauberflote" before this one, if you don't already have it. Finally, for avery good (though dated) dvd, get the Zauberflote conducted by Sawallisch, it's worth it.

Harry

Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2007, 05:22:14 AM
But you are a sensible chap, Harry, and you know that the contrarian facts, that Mozart's operas are generally held to be among the very finest accomplishments in that genre, where no such high esteem is attached to Elgar's symphonies (save by frank Elgarmaniacs), are not to be set aside simply as "conspiracy" or "brain washing" or "lack of free-thinking."

When I said that I felt lost, I meant that I had yet to learn and listen my way through Mozart his operas.
The finest accomplishments, most certainly, but maybe I am just to insensitive at the moment for the relative merits. Whatever may be the case, I clearly have to find my way through them, and I will, in time, I hope. :)
My esteem for Elgar or Mozart, or any other composer is on the same level, there is no competition between them, for I see good in almost every composer.
Poju used some strong terms yes, but the art is not to be provoked by them, and I am not. I find it rather refreshing.
Tis him being under fire I don't like. :)

Haffner

Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2007, 05:22:14 AM
But you are a sensible chap, Harry, and you know that the contrarian facts, that Mozart's operas are generally held to be among the very finest accomplishments in that genre, where no such high esteem is attached to Elgar's symphonies (save by frank Elgarmaniacs), are not to be set aside simply as "conspiracy" or "brain washing" or "lack of free-thinking."



It's only my opinion, but although I agree with Karl in regard to Mozart's operas being overall phenomenal (and often unmatched), I have a high regard for Elgar's Cello Concerto. Of course, I'd never rank it up there with Mozart's best, but that's just me. Whadda I know  ;D?

Harry

#118
Quote from: Haffner on October 10, 2007, 05:30:10 AM


This one is very good. You know, Harry, since I recall your liking Sir Marriner, please accept my reccomendation of his "Zauberflote" before this one, if you don't already have it. Finally, for avery good (though dated) dvd, get the Zauberflote conducted by Sawallisch, it's worth it.

I heard some samples of Marriner and you are right its very good, so it probably will go on my list, thanks for pointing it out.
Sawallish is sent to me by a friend from France, so in a couple of days I will hear that too.

dtwilbanks

Do you watch operas during your workouts, Harry?