Mozart operas

[karlhenning]

Exactly. I wish I enjoyed Mozart's operas as much as his other works.

Yes, fortunately you enjoy such mediocre-to-mixed figures as Dittersdorf and Elgar.

Poju, you don't get it, do you?  Talk Mozart here.  No one gives the least shade of a damn about Dittersdwarf or Elgar in this thread.  So talk Mozart, or clam up.

[dtwilbanks]

One widely held opinion among people is that classical music sucks (and heavy metal rules).
I'm sure you agree with me that's a stupid opinion.

I listened to both today. I must be only half-stupid. 

[karlhenning]

Yes, folks, trying yet again . . . .

There seems to be some degree of artistic quibble with the "moralizing" conclusion to Don Giovanni.  OTOH, considering the way that Stravinsky & Auden 'celebrated' that sort of 'observational framework' with a similar upbeat conclusion to The Rake's Progress . . . I think of it just as one of the layers of 'staginess'.  Sure, many interesting changes have been made in the operatic world in the interests of "truth to drama" (as each age perceives that particular moving target), but the fact is, that when you have people singing the drama, the spectacle operates in ways very other than Hamlet, or The Importance of Being Earnest, or A Streetcar Named Desire.

[bhodges]

...but the fact is, that when you have people singing the drama, the spectacle operates in ways very other than Hamlet, or The Importance of Being Earnest, or A Streetcar Named Desire.

(My emphasis above)

True.  Actually the fact that people are singing the drama is precisely why some listeners don't like any opera, at all, whether by Mozart or anyone else.  There is an amount of suspension of disbelief to overcome, and some people are more willing to do that than others.

--Bruce

[71 dB]

Yes, fortunately you enjoy such mediocre-to-mixed figures as Dittersdorf and Elgar.

Not mediocre to me. That was been my message on this forum from day one.

Poju, you don't get it, do you?  Talk Mozart here.  No one gives the least shade of a damn about Dittersdwarf or Elgar in this thread.  So talk Mozart, or clam up.

I'm happy to talk about Mozart but you others find my words provocative.
My opinion is Mozart's greatness as a composer is not served well in operas.
I also claim Mozart made lots of musical compromises in operas in order to maximize their popularity ( => simple music).
His musical ambitions show themselves elsewhere.
It's ok to enjoy Mozart's operas and find them entertaining but my honest opinion is the music isn't that amazing.

[71 dB]

I listened to both today. I must be only half-stupid. 

Or half-cultivated. 

Hey, last Sunday I watched wrestling after a program about Rameau! Enjoyed both!

[karlhenning]

Actually the fact that people are singing the drama is precisely why some listeners don't like any opera, at all, whether by Mozart or anyone else.

Is it the illusion of realism in the cinemas which drives some of this, do you think, Bruce?
Theatre is a wonderful bridge between immediate experience, and various levels of ritual.  Film is a very different experience, though there are some points of intersection with the stage.

Singers performing Mozart's marvelously polished and subtly inflected music has always been for me one of the most immediately enjoyable 'layers' of his opera.  And the da Ponte adaption of Beaumarchais/Moliere (?) is for me one of the enjoyable rituals about Le nozze di Figaro, for instance.

[dtwilbanks]

Or half-cultivated. 

Hey, last Sunday I watched wrestling after a program about Rameau! Enjoyed both!

That's what I'm talking about. 

[Haffner]

I listened to both today. I must be only half-stupid. 

Ditto.

[dtwilbanks]

Ditto.

I could get into my theories on sound and tone here, but Karl would kick me in the butt.

[Haffner]

I could get into my theories on sound and tone here, but Karl would kick me in the butt.

Karl can be quite restrained and reasonable, among many other admirable traits.

[dtwilbanks]

Karl can be quite restrained and reasonable, among many other admirable traits.

Apparently not when you're messing with his Mozart opera thread. 

[karlhenning]

I think the vibrational fields of Mozart's mature operas are second to none, Dave 

[Haffner]

Is it the illusion of realism in the cinemas which drives some of this, do you think, Bruce?
Theatre is a wonderful bridge between immediate experience, and various levels of ritual.  Film is a very different experience, though there are some points of intersection with the stage.

Singers performing Mozart's marvelously polished and subtly inflected music has always been for me one of the most immediately enjoyable 'layers' of his opera.  And the da Ponte adaption of Beaumarchais/Moliere (?) is for me one of the enjoyable rituals about Le nozze di Figaro, for instance.

That was Beaumarchais, wasn't it? I'm not familiar with the Mozart operas before The Abduction...but I can name few pasttimes more enjoyable than collecting different renditions of the DaPonte operas...in fact, I have had a ball just studying the music and librettos to those operas!

[karlhenning]

Yes, Beaumarchais, of course. I don't know how I threw Molière in there; but at least I didn't panic and say "Burma."

[Haffner]

at least I didn't panic and say "Burma."

(laughing uproariously out loud)

[bhodges]

Is it the illusion of realism in the cinemas which drives some of this, do you think, Bruce?
Theatre is a wonderful bridge between immediate experience, and various levels of ritual.  Film is a very different experience, though there are some points of intersection with the stage.

Singers performing Mozart's marvelously polished and subtly inflected music has always been for me one of the most immediately enjoyable 'layers' of his opera.  And the da Ponte adaption of Beaumarchais/Moliere (?) is for me one of the enjoyable rituals about Le nozze di Figaro, for instance.

I think it's "anyone singing a story," whether on screen or on stage.  Many people don't like musicals for the same reason.  Having just seen the film of Streetcar again a few weeks ago, it's much easier to accept Blanche DuBois screaming out her thoughts verbally, than hearing Renée Fleming sing the same lines--at least, I think so.

And yes, some people probably prefer the cinema rather than the artifice of the stage.  One of the things I find fascinating about expert stagecraft is that it is not film.  In the Met's 2004 Don Giovanni, directed by Marthe Keller (interestingly, yes, the film actress), when the Don descends to Hell he is sort of trapped in a huge pane of glass that slowly sinks into the floor, accompanied by a cloud of smoke.  It's a great image, but doesn't begin to compare to the resources that most filmmakers would call upon to do the same thing.  But I like it because it's "stagy."

--Bruce

[karlhenning]

Artists acted so quickly, in some ways, in past ages that it takes one's breath away
Beaumarchais wrote Le Mariage de Figaro in 1778;  Louis XVI had banned it after a private reading, objecting to its depiction of the aristocracy.  The ban was at last lifted, and the first public performance was in 1784.  Mozart wrote his opera in 1786.

[karlhenning]

I think it's "anyone singing a story," whether on screen or on stage.

What cruel irony, Bruce!  For the ancient storytellers sang their stories, of course.

[karlhenning]

I think it's "anyone singing a story," whether on screen or on stage.  Many people don't like musicals for the same reason.  Having just seen the film of Streetcar again a few weeks ago, it's much easier to accept Blanche DuBois screaming out her thoughts verbally, than hearing Renée Fleming sing the same lines--at least, I think so.

I'm rather shy of musicals myself, though not because I mind people singing the story :-)

I haven't checked out the opera adaptation of Streetcar.

And yes, some people probably prefer the cinema rather than the artifice of the stage.

Which is to say, they are more inclined to accept the artifices of cinema than of the stage.  Where thou and I, Bruce, take both artifices in their place.

One of the things I find fascinating about expert stagecraft is that it is not film.  In the Met's 2004 Don Giovanni, directed by Marthe Keller (interestingly, yes, the film actress), when the Don descends to Hell he is sort of trapped in a huge pane of glass that slowly sinks into the floor, accompanied by a cloud of smoke.  It's a great image, but doesn't begin to compare to the resources that most filmmakers would call upon to do the same thing.  But I like it because it's "stagy."

Yes; the stage is a positive thing on its own.  It isn't a negative "this isn't real life, but . . . ."