Mozart piano sonatas

[Novi]

Found another Mozart sonata CD that sounds promising by Fazil Say......order placed.
This is my first CD by Say......

Has a very vibrant and exciting style and includes the 12 variations on Ah vous dirai-je maman (twinkle twinkle little star) anyone else have this? Share some comments?



BTW also ordered the Haydn sonata CD by Fazil Say 

Fazil Say is quite divisive - I gather that you either are really excited by his playing or you hate it. With the caveat that I've never heard any of his recordings and am only basing my impressions on one performance, I can't stand it.

His K. 331 was entirely unidiomatic; it was mauled all out of shape and he treated it like a Hollywood silent weepy with the gesticulations to match (clutching his chest, caressing the top of the piano). And the alla turca - I've heard a brass band transcription that seemed more Mozartean...

I've heard lots of laudatory comments on his playing, but it just doesn't work for me.

[ccar]

Some interpreters have the rare ability to give us Mozart's irreverence, candidness and poetry in a profound but almost serene and "natural" way. For me this may be most apparent in pianists like Haskil, Lipatti, Gieseking, Casadesus, Pires or Moravec, to name just a few.

But there are other interpreters who seem to be seduced by Mozart's wildness, inventive and improvisational nature. If this is not a mere stylish exhibition, and there is a real talent behind, some of these interpreters may also give us plenty of musical insight, joyful and sometimes unique revelatory readings. And in this more "daring" Mozart I would personally go back to Schnabel, Edwin Fisher, Horszowsky, Horowitz, or even Michelangeli and latter to the more obvious provocative readings of Gould, Gulda or the last enfant terrible Fazil Say.

Like Yin and Yang (please do NOT confuse with Lang and Lang) it is obvious that some of the really great musicians mentioned above were not so simplistically in either side but were able to combine their own personality with talent, musical freedom and imagination.

It is in this contrasting spirit I recommended Gulda's DG sonatas before. And I must also confess I did appreciate the exuberant reading of Fazil Say. He is completely wild and in comparing he would probably turn Glenn Gould into an academic Mozartian. But, at least for me, he has real moments of musical insight.

I may prefer some to others but there is no need to primarily refuse their individual way as long as they are honest and really have something interesting to say about the music. Personally, I would always choose to listen to Mozart with any of the above than to submerge into many of the bright and colorful (perfectly recorded) but musically dry or bland performances out there.

So, if I had to choose a Mozart companion for a long journey I would certainly try to buy a seat next to Clara Haskil. But in a more challenging trip I wouldn't mind being next to Friedrich Gulda.

 

[Mandryka]

So, if I had to choose a Mozart companion for a long journey I would certainly try to buy a seat next to Clara Haskil. But in a more challenging trip I wouldn't mind being next to Friedrich Gulda.

What do you think of Landowska? She's my favourite Mozartian, closely followed by Claudio Arrau and Richter.

[George]

Some interpreters have the rare ability to give us Mozart's irreverence, candidness and poetry in a profound but almost serene and "natural" way. For me this may be most apparent in pianists like Haskil, Lipatti, Gieseking, Casadesus, Pires or Moravec, to name just a few.

Thanks for your post. A few thoughts:

I need to revisit Moravec's Mozart, as my first impression wasn't that favorable. Other than Haskil, whom I enjoy, I haven't heard the others from your list. I would like to hear Pires at some point. Which is better, her Denon or her DG set?

But there are other interpreters who seem to be seduced by Mozart's wildness, inventive and improvisational nature. If this is not a mere stylish exhibition, and there is a real talent behind, some of these interpreters may also give us plenty of musical insight, joyful and sometimes unique revelatory readings. And in this more "daring" Mozart I would personally go back to Schnabel, Edwin Fisher, Horszowsky, Horowitz, or even Michelangeli and latter to the more obvious provocative readings of Gould, Gulda or the last enfant terrible Fazil Say.

I would add Kraus to this list.

I also don't know which category Pogorelich belongs in, but his Mozart is superb! I recently compared a number of different Fantasies in d minor and his (on DG) won by a sizable margin.

[ccar]

What do you think of Landowska? She's my favourite Mozartian, closely followed by Claudio Arrau and Richter.

To be perfectly clear I should add that the names I mentioned in my previous post are not any kind of "Best Mozartian" personal list. I am never able to do this type of podium enumeration. Because, as I tried to exemplify, I usually need to drink from very different musical waters.  The artists I named were mainly used to illustrate what I feel are contrasting talents and the interest of listening to complementary interpretative approaches. 
       
Naturally, my first contact with Landowska was through her famous Bach and Scarlatti recordings. Having only the listening imprint of her harpsichord I didn't Know what to expect when, in the late 1980's, I came across with her 1945-46 live recording with Rodzinsky playing some Mozart concertos, with a piano ... . For me it was a complete surprise. Firstly, because it is (now) unusual for the same interpreter to approach the different types of keyboards. And mostly because the playing was very relaxed and sensitive but with lots of "pianistic" colors and nuance. Since then I learned to enjoy Landowska the pianist. Her Mozart certainly has plenty of subtlety and finesse.

I have the feeling Arrau is "politically incorrect". His large scale phrasing and tone are not in tune with our "modern" musical style. We have learned to refuse anything that smells "romantic" as some kind of deadly interpretative cholesterol. Particularly in Mozart we must look for crispy accents, harpsichord like tone, restrained colors and a metronomically informed tempo. But, if we are certain we are in a secured line, I may confess to you Mandryka - I still listen and enjoy many of his recordings (including some of his Mozart). 

Richter is almost too large to comment. Let me just say that when I think of him playing Mozart it always comes to my mind his partnership with Oleg Kagan (magical violin sonatas !) and his concertos with Britten (another inspired Mozart interpreter).

I would like to hear Pires at some point. Which is better, her Denon or her DG set?
I would add Kraus to this list.
I also don't know which category Pogorelich belongs in, but his Mozart is superb! I recently compared a number of different Fantasies in d minor and his (on DG) won by a sizable margin.

Somehow I "learned" my Mozart piano concertos and sonatas listening to Maria João Pires Lisbon concertos and recitals. And years before her second DG reading of the sonatas, her first "Denons" were my bread and butter recordings. In spite of a more refined interpretation and the opulent DG modern sound I still go back to her more spontaneous first performances, now released by Brilliant at bargain price.
                 
I also agree with you George. Kraus and Pogorelich deserve to be mentioned. And no doubt about it - Pogorelich is certainly in the more "daring" side.       

[Bulldog]

Fazil Say is quite divisive - I gather that you either are really excited by his playing or you hate it. With the caveat that I've never heard any of his recordings and am only basing my impressions on one performance, I can't stand it.

His K. 331 was entirely unidiomatic; it was mauled all out of shape and he treated it like a Hollywood silent weepy with the gesticulations to match (clutching his chest, caressing the top of the piano). And the alla turca - I've heard a brass band transcription that seemed more Mozartean...

I've heard lots of laudatory comments on his playing, but it just doesn't work for me.

I agree with your assessment of Say's Mozart disc.  He uses Mozart's notes as his foundation, then travels to distant lands devoid of Mozart's idiom.

[Mandryka]

I have the feeling Arrau is "politically incorrect". His large scale phrasing and tone are not in tune with our "modern" musical style. We have learned to refuse anything that smells "romantic" as some kind of deadly interpretative cholesterol. Particularly in Mozart we must look for crispy accents, harpsichord like tone, restrained colors and a metronomically informed tempo. But, if we are certain we are in a secured line, I may confess to you Mandryka - I still listen and enjoy many of his recordings (including some of his Mozart). 
                     

I listened to some Gilels Mozart sonatas recently -- his phrasing and tempos are very similar to Arrau's at times. Not a lot of people know that.

Gilels's tone is very different though.

BTW -- I believe that next year will see the realease of some Haydn sonatas played by Landowska on piano.

I agree with your assessment of Say's Mozart disc.  He uses Mozart's notes as his foundation, then travels to distant lands devoid of Mozart's idiom.

What is this Mozart idiom? How do you recognise it?

Another mystery to me -- like Brahmsian inflection no-one has ever explained it to me.

[Herman]

What is this Mozart idiom? How do you recognise it?

Another mystery to me -- like Brahmsian inflection no-one has ever explained it to me.

It is tough to have to put these things into words, but one is able to tell the difference.

One thing with Mozart is his music should always sound as if it's sung, the other thing is there's always some form of drama (serious or funny) going on. Another thing is the music should always be on the move. There is so much happening, in terms of thematic work and harmony, that it would be a sin to linger.

[George]

OK, after further comparison, the Music and Arts is the clear winner for the K 280. The relaxed style doesn't work as well here, as it comes off sounding tentative and less exciting. I'll report my findings as I go, but so far it's dead even on these two sets.

A comparison of the next two sonatas revealed that they were split as well. The stereo version of the K. 281 was noticeably better than the stereo and the mono K. 282, with it's lovely first movement and lively finale bettered the stereo.

So after 4 sonatas, it's still dead even.   

[ccar]

What do you think of Landowska? She's my favourite Mozartian, closely followed by Claudio Arrau and Richter.

Following your suggestion I revived, with pleasure, my memory of the polish-french Wanda Landowska playing Mozart. While listening Landowska my mind linked with another wonderful french pianist - Marcelle Meyer. They both shared their interest in Bach, Scarlatti, Rameau, Couperin and, of course, Mozart. The recent bargain box with most of Meyer's recordings (Les Discophiles français - EMI) is also a wonderful opportunity to remember (or discover) the artistry of Marcelle Meyer. And her Mozart is also quite unique. [Sonatas K281, K310, K311, K332, K533, Fantasia K396, Rondo K494, Adagio K540, Gigue K574, Minuet K355, Concertos K466, K488 (from EMI & Tahra)].             

             
                                         

[Mandryka]

One thing with Mozart is his music should always sound as if it's sung, the other thing is there's always some form of drama (serious or funny) going on. Another thing is the music should always be on the move. There is so much happening, in terms of thematic work and harmony, that it would be a sin to linger.

Well, there are performances I like which don't sound sung (like Kristian Bezuidenhout's K310). And performances which I like which aren't so dramatic, and are pretty static in fact  (like Claudio Arrau's K475/547, esp at the beginning of the Fantasie and in the slow movement of the sonata.) And performances which I don't much enjoy even though they fit your definition of idiomatic (like Lipatti's K310.)

So I guess my question has to be: is your definition of "idiomatic" supposed to be just a reflection of your tastes, or the tastes of some group of Mozartians, or the dominant paradigm for Mozart performance standards today, or a view of historical practice, or what?

[DarkAngel]

CCAR
Seems the muse of choice for female classical pianists is house cat..........

I have received the Fazil Say sonata CD.........good excuse to also pull out the Gould/Sony, Horowitz/Sony sonata CDs, my resident "enfant terribles" 

BTW my favorite modern piano complete set of the Mozart Sonatas is Pires/DG discussed earlier in this thread

[DarkAngel]

BTW my favorite modern piano complete set of the Mozart Sonatas is Pires/DG discussed earlier in this thread

Because I love the 1990s Pires DG sonata set so much, I decided it was also necessary to get her earlier set originally issued on Denon label but now available for very low price on Brilliant Classics.......CCAR comments are responsible for this latest outlay.......

[George]

Because I love the 1990s Pires DG sonata set so much, I decided it was also necessary to get her earlier set originally issued on Denon label but now available for very low price on Brilliant Classics.......CCAR comments are responsible for this latest outlay.......

I'll be excited to hear your impression of how they compare, as I only wish to buy one.

[ccar]

I listened to some Gilels Mozart sonatas recently -- his phrasing and tempos are very similar to Arrau's at times. Not a lot of people know that.
Gilels's tone is very different though.

What is this Mozart idiom? How do you recognise it?
Another mystery to me -- like Brahmsian inflection no-one has ever explained it to me.

" Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please." Mark Twain

I always doubt on any rigidity of facts, theories and concepts in life. And even more so in art, or music. The richness and variety of possible readings is usually the hallmark of any work of art or composition. And individual musical interpretations, when mixed with honesty and inspiration, are usually the hallmark of musical talent.

For me, the rigidity of many academics, historians, critics or even interpreters on what "it must be" the tempo, the tone, the orchestration, the instrumentation, the vibrato, the accentuation, the touch, or whatever, for any particular composer or work is to be taken with extreme caution.  This is not to say there is no place for study, analysis or criticism. But when we have to deal with the real stuff – performing, interpreting, listening and feeling the music – the talent and the sensibility must not be overshadowed by "absolute" historical or intellectual dogmas.

So, when I see so much certainty and ease while describing or defending the correct "style" (or inclination or perhaps idiom) for a particular composer or period I wonder.  Certainly, I am not by any way a music historian (perhaps fortunately) nor do I pretend to know anything  of the "hard facts" of the historically informed musical science. Nevertheless I cannot resist to quote a curious comment I recently read about the tempi in musical performance. 

Mozart and Beethoven are traditionally believed to have played lively movements very fast, yet it is never specified to which kind of lively pieces this tradition refers. We can safely assume that as they were both enormously skilful instrumentalists they played pieces marked Allegro C + ⃓ in a tempo that would be considered as very fast in any period. But it is misleading, when we try to define the conception of tempo in the past, to think in our terms of "fast", for the basic pace of fast movements increased in speed from one period to another.

Now a performance of Beethoven's Eroica Symphony on a LP record lasts approximately forty-six minutes; according to Theodor Müller- Reuther's Lexicon der deutschen Konzertliteratur, 1921, the duration of the same work was fifty-two minutes. But more than a hundred years earlier, when the second performance of the Eroica took place with Beethoven as conductor, the critic of the Allgemeine Musikzeitung complained that the symphony lasted one full hour and therefore advised the master to make cuts in the work.

(Musical Performance in the Times of Mozart and Beethoven: The Lost Tradition in Music - Fritz Rothschild; Adam and Charles Black, 1961)

[Mandryka]

I always doubt on any rigidity of facts, theories and concepts in life. And even more so in art, or music. The richness and variety of possible readings is usually the hallmark of any work of art or composition. And individual musical interpretations, when mixed with honesty and inspiration, are usually the hallmark of musical talent.

The problem, of course, is to stop criticism falling into subjectivity -- there are, maybe, standards of taste.

I am always seeing reference to standards. I collect them. Here's a sample, collected from pundits  here, there and everywhere :

• Fazil Say doesn't play Mozart with the right idiom
• Richter is incompatible with Mozart
• Richter doesn't play the Paganini Variations with the right Brahmsian inflections
• Uchida is a true Mozartian, especially in the B minor adagio
• Arrau in his 50s Eroica Variations really knows how to play Beethoven
• Cziffra understands the spirit of Liszt
• Cortot is the foundation of all Chopin playing
• Russians don't know how to play Schubert, except for Richter who is sui generis
• Kempff and Brendel play Schubert correctly

People rarely go on to explain what they mean, and I suspect that in some cases these comments are just rhetorical gestures used to intimidate the enemy. That's why I was keen to ask what Mozartian idiom is.

[DarkAngel]

 

Anthony Newman..........

A name I almost never hear mentioned here, many think he is way off base, controversial, a misguided artist that takes too many liberties with score etc. Let me tell you I love these exciting sonata performances, for comparison I do own Brautigam , Lubimov, and 2CD Immerseel fortepiano sets. Newman uses two fortepianos that sound really nice, full rich tones:
1790 Konicke
1803 Clementi

And as usual he plays faster tempos, but not rushed to the point of loosing rythmic line (I do have some work by Newman that is insanely fast and baffles me not this however), just sparkling exciting performances played with great flair that make you smile. I know many will think this is not Mozart, it is Newman remaking them into something else blah blah 

The 2CD Sony contains volumes 3,4 of the set......or you can still buy them seperately
Take a chance and give one a try, buy used at Amazon. BTW if you like Fazil Say's Mozart sonatas for piano then Newman is your man for fortepiano versions

Wait till Bulldog hears what I have to say about Newman's WTC & Goldberg Cds   

[Gurn Blanston]

Yup, I have those disks and am quite fond of them. It hadn't occurred to me that anyone would take exception.   Also have the ones he did with the Brandenburg Collegium of the K 136-138 divertimenti. These are very nice versions too.



----------------
Listening to:
Scottish Chamber Orchestra - Orchestra & Chorus/Sir Charles Mackerras - K 620 Die Zauberflöte - part 06 - Arie (Tamino) - Dies Bildnis ist bezaubernd schön

[Mandryka]

[
Anthony Newman..........

He is, actually, my favourite Mozart pianist on fortepiano -- though maybe that will change when we get more from Bezuidenhout.

Exciting; dramatic;, not without elegance; nice tone; sensitive; witty.

More interesting, I think, than Lubimov in many of the sonatas.

[abidoful]

Funny, I was going to say that in a similar way, Bach fills another spot. As does Rachmaninoff, Chopin, Debussy and Beethoven. To clarify, this spot just means that there are times when only Mozart (or Rachmaninoff, Chopin, Debussy or Beethoven) will do.

i agree- i think i will have "a mozart phase" sometime in the near future, i imagine there are so many precious things there (i dont think i have heard a single of his SQts!!)