Mozart piano sonatas

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 05:16:34 AM

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kishnevi

Quote from: Mandryka on October 24, 2014, 07:54:58 AM
What's the opinion on Gould here?
Gould as usual does his own thing.  Works for some, like me and Florestan; does not work for others like Todd. No way to predict which camp you will be in so better listen first and then decide.  (That said I suspect you will like it.)

Mandryka

#501
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 24, 2014, 11:11:14 AM
Gould as usual does his own thing.  Works for some, like me and Florestan; does not work for others like Todd. No way to predict which camp you will be in so better listen first and then decide.  (That said I suspect you will like it.)

And when you have someone like Uchida, what's going on there? She's not doing her own thing?

It's as if a whole set of conventions surrounding the performance of this music has evolved  -- conventions about touch and tempo and voicing and rubato. And they set expectations among listeners. So we have a difference between those with conservative tastes (what I sometimes think of, disparagingly, as piano teachers' taste) and people who are sufficiently open minded to enjoy the imaginative poetry of a genius like Glenn Gould.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

king ubu

sorry to interrupt, but:

Quote from: king ubu on October 24, 2014, 10:12:02 AM
Now that my curiosity is piqued ... is there but one complete Mozart sonata cycle by PBS?

anyone?
Es wollt ein meydlein grasen gan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Und do die roten röslein stan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Fick mich mehr, du hast dein ehr.
Kannstu nit, ich wills dich lern.
Fick mich, lieber Peter!

http://ubus-notizen.blogspot.ch/

kishnevi

Quote from: Mandryka on October 24, 2014, 11:20:16 AM
And when you have someone like Uchida, what's going on there? She's not doing her own thing?

It's as if a whole set of conventions surrounding the performance of this music has evolved  -- conventions about touch and tempo and voicing and rubato. And they set expectations among listeners. So we have a difference between those with conservative tastes (what I sometimes think of, disparagingly, as piano teachers' taste) and people who are sufficiently open minded to enjoy the imaginative poetry of a genius like Glenn Gould.

Good way of putting this is:
Uchida is Uchida trying to do Mozart's thing. "If I were Mozart I would play it like this."
Gould is Mozart trying to do Gould's thing.  "If Mozart was me he would play it like this."

I like the result.  You have confirmed my suspicion that you would like it too.

kishnevi


king ubu

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 24, 2014, 11:30:41 AM
See reply 487.

Thanks! I should pay more attention to the fine print  ;) (though it's 486, but I found it!)
Es wollt ein meydlein grasen gan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Und do die roten röslein stan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Fick mich mehr, du hast dein ehr.
Kannstu nit, ich wills dich lern.
Fick mich, lieber Peter!

http://ubus-notizen.blogspot.ch/

Mandryka

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 24, 2014, 11:29:35 AM
Good way of putting this is:
Uchida is Uchida trying to do Mozart's thing. "If I were Mozart I would play it like this."
Gould is Mozart trying to do Gould's thing.  "If Mozart was me he would play it like this."

I like the result.  You have confirmed my suspicion that you would like it too.

But I strongly suspect that we haven't got a scooby doo how Mozart would have played it, especially on a modern piano.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Ken B

Quote from: Mandryka on October 24, 2014, 12:12:00 PM
But I strongly suspect that we haven't got a scooby doo how Mozart would have played it, especially on a modern piano.
Unless he has Tourrette's, not like Gould.

North Star

Quote from: Ken B on October 24, 2014, 12:28:39 PM
Unless he has Tourrette's, not like Gould.
Based on their letters, the whole family was a bunch of coprolaliacs..
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George

Quote from: Moonfish on October 24, 2014, 07:35:59 AM
Personally I have always been an Uchida fan when it comes to the Mozart sonatas although Pires has been alluring at times. Lately, I have been utterly charmed by Kraus's performances, which are delicate although free-flowing. She seems in complete command of the music in these sonatas and she does so with such grace and artistry.  I am now starting to lean towards Kraus as the muse of the Mozart sonatas. Fantastic performances.

[asin] B00LLHG94W[/asin]

Strongly seconded!
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

Old Listener

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2014, 05:09:44 PM
I had never realized that this Badura-Skoda had gone rare; I have always thought that if I had it, everyone else could get it easily too!   ???

In that case, could I have your copy? ;)

amw

Quote from: Ken B on October 24, 2014, 12:28:39 PM
Unless he has Tourrette's, not like Gould.
Composers are often way more extreme in their own interpretations of their works than other performers are, and take more liberties to boot.

It's highly unlikely Mozart ever played any of his compositions the same way twice.

(I like Gould's Mozart but my favourite of his recordings are probably his Brahms, Strauss, Wagner & Sibelius, for whatever reason.)

Cosi bel do

Well, these recent discussions led me to start a sonata by sonata comparison  :laugh: ???
It will take me around two weeks and I'm not listening to all cycles, I prefer to concentrate on versions on modern piano (Kraus, Gould, Eschenbach, Pires on Denon, Barenboim, also Würtz even if I usually can't stand her uninspired and technically mediocre playing, and a few more versions for some sonatas, including Haskil, Richter, etc.)...

For the moment (currently listening to the 3rd sonata), Lili Kraus is really unequivocally wonderful. Nobody does better than her in terms of detail, she gives the impression that each note was an object of deep thinking, every single one of them is exactly weighted and put into a very subtle and logical discourse that is frankly unmatched.
Another surprise is that Barenboim is much better than what I remembered, and he is one of the few pianists, after Kraus, who really try to build a musical speech. He is not without flaws (mainly, a little too nervous and even hard touch, even if actually not always annoying). But still he is more interesting for the moment than the brilliant but quite superficial and artificial recordings of Eschenbach.

Mandryka

If you can find it (I can always let you have it) there's a DG LP of Gilels playing 281 which I think is a bit special. There's also Sokolov playing 280, and commercially I like Horszowsky in that one. In 279 I have never heard better than Kraus's first recording.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Cosi bel do

Thanks Mandryka. Of Gilels in 281 I only have a live. Sokolov, yes, I found an unofficial source from 2008. Horszowski, hadn't thought of him, he has recorded the full cycle, hasn't he ? Well, I just see sonatas 1-8 on Arbiter, but it seems well oop anyway...

Mandryka

#515
When you move on to 282 check the live recital from 1997 by Ranki, it's on youtube and I have it in excellent sound. There's one of those early sonatas with a really enormous set of variations which I once explored at some length, and I found Ranki by far the best - in fact the only one who could keep my attention for the whole length of the variations. Unnfortunately his early recording for Hungaroton is incomplete.

Horszowsky - sometimes I love and sometimes I loathe. His set is easily streamable, downloadable, I suspect Arbiter have abandoned the CD.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Cosi bel do

Yes, thanks for mentioning Ranki, I usually love him in almost everything :)

I didn't find a downloadable Horszowski :(

Cosi bel do

It might be of interest for certain persons if I share my impressions during this comparison, and what my favourite versions are.

So far, I've listened to 4 sonatas, and from 6 (K.279) to 13 (K.282) versions of each sonata (complete sets by Kraus/Discophiles, Gould, Eschenbach, Pires/Denon, Barenboim, Uchida and Würtz). It's a great journey, I mean, hearing this music really makes you feel good, I'd even say it makes you feel a better person in some way, it's quite... extraordinary. But any word is trivial anyway, by comparison.

In K.279, Lili Kraus et Daniel Barenboim are both excellent. Eschenbach is very good too, but less detailed, same problem for Pires by the way.

In K.280, Kraus is ahead, but Haskil is really incredible too, and they both play it like an entirely different piece of music. Kraus' musical discourse, detailed to the point each notes sounds really weighted, contrasts with Haskil's singing piano, always sotto voce, and stylistically impeccable. Richter is excellent too, only the out of tune instrument makes it sound less perfect (but it's incredible how Richter somewhat plays with that defect). Also just behind these, and almost perfect are Pires (simple, modest, somewhat echoing Haskil) and Barenboim (very detailed and subtle, only very slightly technically flawed). But there are almost no bad versions (except Würtz).

In K.281, Kraus is again excellent, and Barenboim is too, both are very convincing and incredibly well detailed and precise. The other great version is Gilels (live in Moscow, 1970), very slow (21 minutes!), with a unique sens of architecture, I mean, Emil is telling us a story here... A lot of tension too, incredible dynamics. And still he never seems to betray the score, to play Gilels instead of Mozart (well I just described Gilels' usual qualities, and they are fully expressed in this recording). Then, Horowitz is among the best too (mannered of course, but so charming, and with such a generous and intimist piano that it is impossible to resist it). Perlemuter, Pires, Uchida, also succeed but with a little less personality, you don't fell the music "happens" as in the 4 previously mentioned.

In K.282, if I had to choose... It would be difficult from the start : Feinberg (1953) and Kraus (1954) both sound perfect. Feinberg more in a neat kind of way, with a unique capacity to hold the sound (the end of 1st movement is crazy for that), and a natural and delicate flow; Kraus more in the usual way she reveals every detail, with a wonderful spirit, a joy to play this music and share it as it is the most evident thing. Then there are many other very nice versions among which Pires is very good (slightly behind the best ones), with an incredibly beautiful first movement, without the artificiality one can find with Eschenbach. Ranki (in concert) is also excellent. But there are two wonderful versions, which are Richter (1989, live) and Virsaladze (2013, live), with somewhat close conceptions by the way. So in this sonata, 4 really great versions...
I also listened to one fortepiano version as I had grown quite curious at that point : Staier. And it was excellent indeed, of course you have to admit from the start that all he does in terms of ornamentation is justified... He really plays it almost as an improvisation and that is very convincing, thanks to a great sense of detail that, in the end, really reminded me of Lili Kraus more than any other artist here... So, I have to add it among the great versions.
Also, Barenboim had really surprised me in the 3 previous sonatas, but here his reading is one of the worst (THE worst being Gould, whose only quality is that his little spit lasts only 7 minutes).

I might not do a sonata-by-sonata commentary like this for all of them, but at least I'll update this list of my favourite versions (I'll also be able to put the 7 full cycles I'm listening to during this comparison in an order of preference):

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)

Moonfish

Cosi,
How does Uchida fare in these early sonatas (in your humble opinion)? I always preferred her over Barenboim (but I think I was charmed by her live performance and a very strong first impression) and viewed her as Mozart's champion in the sonatas.
"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Mandryka

#519
Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 04, 2014, 03:58:48 PM
It might be of interest for certain persons if I share my impressions during this comparison, and what my favourite versions are.

So far, I've listened to 4 sonatas, and from 6 (K.279) to 13 (K.282) versions of each sonata (complete sets by Kraus/Discophiles, Gould, Eschenbach, Pires/Denon, Barenboim, Uchida and Würtz). It's a great journey, I mean, hearing this music really makes you feel good, I'd even say it makes you feel a better person in some way, it's quite... extraordinary. But any word is trivial anyway, by comparison.

In K.279, Lili Kraus et Daniel Barenboim are both excellent. Eschenbach is very good too, but less detailed, same problem for Pires by the way.

In K.280, Kraus is ahead, but Haskil is really incredible too, and they both play it like an entirely different piece of music. Kraus' musical discourse, detailed to the point each notes sounds really weighted, contrasts with Haskil's singing piano, always sotto voce, and stylistically impeccable. Richter is excellent too, only the out of tune instrument makes it sound less perfect (but it's incredible how Richter somewhat plays with that defect). Also just behind these, and almost perfect are Pires (simple, modest, somewhat echoing Haskil) and Barenboim (very detailed and subtle, only very slightly technically flawed). But there are almost no bad versions (except Würtz).

In K.281, Kraus is again excellent, and Barenboim is too, both are very convincing and incredibly well detailed and precise. The other great version is Gilels (live in Moscow, 1970), very slow (21 minutes!), with a unique sens of architecture, I mean, Emil is telling us a story here... A lot of tension too, incredible dynamics. And still he never seems to betray the score, to play Gilels instead of Mozart (well I just described Gilels' usual qualities, and they are fully expressed in this recording). Then, Horowitz is among the best too (mannered of course, but so charming, and with such a generous and intimist piano that it is impossible to resist it). Perlemuter, Pires, Uchida, also succeed but with a little less personality, you don't fell the music "happens" as in the 4 previously mentioned.

In K.282, if I had to choose... It would be difficult from the start : Feinberg (1953) and Kraus (1954) both sound perfect. Feinberg more in a neat kind of way, with a unique capacity to hold the sound (the end of 1st movement is crazy for that), and a natural and delicate flow; Kraus more in the usual way she reveals every detail, with a wonderful spirit, a joy to play this music and share it as it is the most evident thing. Then there are many other very nice versions among which Pires is very good (slightly behind the best ones), with an incredibly beautiful first movement, without the artificiality one can find with Eschenbach. Ranki (in concert) is also excellent. But there are two wonderful versions, which are Richter (1989, live) and Virsaladze (2013, live), with somewhat close conceptions by the way. So in this sonata, 4 really great versions...
I also listened to one fortepiano version as I had grown quite curious at that point : Staier. And it was excellent indeed, of course you have to admit from the start that all he does in terms of ornamentation is justified... He really plays it almost as an improvisation and that is very convincing, thanks to a great sense of detail that, in the end, really reminded me of Lili Kraus more than any other artist here... So, I have to add it among the great versions.
Also, Barenboim had really surprised me in the 3 previous sonatas, but here his reading is one of the worst (THE worst being Gould, whose only quality is that his little spit lasts only 7 minutes).

I might not do a sonata-by-sonata commentary like this for all of them, but at least I'll update this list of my favourite versions (I'll also be able to put the 7 full cycles I'm listening to during this comparison in an order of preference):

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)




Where is Virssaladze's recording of 282? I'd like to hear it.

(Are you in Paris? Are you going to hear Sokolov next week?)
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen