Mozart piano sonatas

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 05:16:34 AM

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Wakefield

"One of the greatest misfortunes of honest people is that they are cowards. They complain, keep quiet, dine and forget."
-- Voltaire

Mandryka

#601
Quote from: Gordo on November 10, 2014, 11:02:52 AM
Earlier recording on Vanguard (Vienna, 1968):

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/sggdns0i6azwtex/01_Alfred_Brendel_-_Mozart:_Piano_Sonata_#8_in_A_minor,_K_310_-_1._Allegro_Maestoso.mp3

Thanks. Lubimov also very distinctive and serious in this one, for me not a very attractive or deep performance though.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Wakefield

Quote from: Mandryka on November 11, 2014, 07:47:00 AM
Thanks. Lubimov also very distinctive and serious in this one, for me not a very attractive or deep performance though.

On the contrary, I really like this Brendel version. Nimble, transparent and like expressing a vigorous feeling of freedom.

As a citizen, a free man around the city, proud of his own freedom and not because of his privileges.  :)
"One of the greatest misfortunes of honest people is that they are cowards. They complain, keep quiet, dine and forget."
-- Voltaire

Mandryka

Oh, I shouldn't have written that.

I think Lubimov is really inteerstiing in 330, unexpectedly serious. I think it's a valuable recording

I like the late Brendel a lot too. The earlier Brendel, I've not had a chance to hear yet.

Sorry for the misunderstandings here -- my fault.

I'm enjoying going through these sonatas a lot -- I'd forgotten, or maybe I'd never realised, how good they can be, and how elusive they can be.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Todd

Quote from: Mandryka on November 11, 2014, 11:09:32 AMI'm enjoying going through these sonatas a lot -- I'd forgotten, or maybe I'd never realised, how good they can be, and how elusive they can be.



That reminds me of one of Schnabel's comments to the effect that Mozart is too easy for children but too difficult for adults.
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Jay F

Lately, I've been enjoying Brendel's Mozart piano sonatas, too. I've had the CDs since each was released, but never paid much attention, thinking they just weren't as good as Beethoven's or Schubert's piano sonatas. But I've pretty much given up on listening to CDs. I bought one of Bowers & Wilkins' wireless speaker systems, and I enjoy listening this way so much more than over a regular stereo system.

I have tinnitus, and I hear so much more of the music this way. The further away speakers are from my head/brain, the larger (literally) the hiss seems. With the B&W Z2, the music is right on my desktop or right next to my bed, no more than two or three feet from my head. I hear so much more of the music this way. It's like I'm hearing Mozart's piano sonatas, at least Brendel's versions, for the very first time.

Florestan

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Cosi bel do

#607
I finished listening to K.330 and my first thought would be that it's really a very, very difficult sonata despite its apparent unpretentiousness. This music confronts any artist to very difficult choices. The Andante cantabile for instance is rarely a success, frequently quite flat or mechanical. Lili Kraus plays it with detail, dynamic changes everywhere, and that keeps a lot of tension (her interpretation is really good, despite maybe a little too much detail in the finale, where the light spirit of the allegretto tends to be a little forgotten).
Uchida on the contrary plays the middle movement with only a straight and decontracted approach, pretty sound... I sometimes find her a little too formal but, here, it works very well. Even if (as for Kraus) I wouldn't say these are "definitive" interpretations, I liked them a lot by comparison, but I still felt it can be better.
Among good readings in the "slow" movement, there is Horowitz too (the Moscow DG recital, not the mediocre NY studio recording of 1985), who surprised me with an approach I would have imagined more under the hands of a HIP pianofortist. His quasi-improvised style is very clever. But the rest is less perfect, and the finale really too unstable.
I listened to one HIP artist almost at the end, Andreas Staier, whose performance is really great but sounds very, very slightly artificial, lacking spontaneity, very "studio recording" (well, it is one, I know).
So, here I was, with three "great but not extraordinary" recordings (Kraus, Uchida, Staier) and no real favourite. Then, I listened to the very last of the versions I had, an unofficial Zimerman recording (Vienna 2008) Mandryka had pointed to me. And here it was ! Perfect, elegant, simple at the same time, cantabile but articulated, neat but never cold, with many ideas but never falling into mannerism. There really is something in Zimerman's playing I find more and more interesting in the recent years. I don't know if I can find any better reading than this one for K.330, and really recommend it anyway.

I listened to 18 versions of K.330. The less satisfying ones were Van Cliburn (cold, rigid, slow, totally uninteresting), Gould (as usual, brutal, mechanical, caricatural), Horowitz (the 1985 studio, very mannered and technically weak). Then, not very good, mediocre but not unbearable, were Kocsis (mechanical, acking any subtlety and variety), Barenboim (mostly because of rough editing and Barenboim's hard touch), Brendel 1998 (unstable and limited technique, flat vision, though the Andante is a little better) and Würtz (as usual, unfortunately).

Updated list of favourites :

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
10 (K.330): Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)

By the way, I listened to 2 more versions of K.310 (again !). Kempff is really one of the worst, brutal, technically very unstable, he starts sometimes with interesting choices but then his playing is so harsh it becomes very frustrating. I also listened to Barenboim 1966 (Westminster), full of ideas and spontaneity, almost gilelsian in a way, only small technical flaws and strange metallic notes of the piano prevent it to be one of the best versions I heard.

Now starting K.331...

Drasko

Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 12, 2014, 02:20:08 PM
Then, I listened to the very last of the versions I had, an unofficial Zimerman recording (Vienna 2008) Mandryka had pointed to me. And here it was ! Perfect, elegant, simple at the same time, cantabile but articulated, neat but never cold, with many ideas but never falling into mannerism. There really is something in Zimerman's playing I find more and more interesting in the recent years. I don't know if I can find any better reading than this one for K.330, and really recommend it anyway.

Zimerman released an LP of Mozart sonatas (K280, K281, K330, K331) for DG in late 70s, but then forbade its further re-release, so I believe they never made it to CD. I'm sure LP rips can be found online.
But for what it's worth I prefer the live Vienna '08 K330 to the LP one, phrasing being more eloquent and richer.

Mandryka

#609
Quote from: Cosi bel do on November 12, 2014, 02:20:08 PM
I finished listening to K.330 and my first thought would be that it's really a very, very difficult sonata despite its apparent unpretentiousness. This music confronts any artist to very difficult choices. The Andante cantabile for instance is rarely a success, frequently quite flat or mechanical. Lili Kraus plays it with detail, dynamic changes everywhere, and that keeps a lot of tension (her interpretation is really good, despite maybe a little too much detail in the finale, where the light spirit of the allegretto tends to be a little forgotten).
Uchida on the contrary plays the middle movement with only a straight and decontracted approach, pretty sound... I sometimes find her a little too formal but, here, it works very well. Even if (as for Kraus) I wouldn't say these are "definitive" interpretations, I liked them a lot by comparison, but I still felt it can be better.
Among good readings in the "slow" movement, there is Horowitz too (the Moscow DG recital, not the mediocre NY studio recording of 1985), who surprised me with an approach I would have imagined more under the hands of a HIP pianofortist. His quasi-improvised style is very clever. But the rest is less perfect, and the finale really too unstable.
I listened to one HIP artist almost at the end, Andreas Staier, whose performance is really great but sounds very, very slightly artificial, lacking spontaneity, very "studio recording" (well, it is one, I know).
So, here I was, with three "great but not extraordinary" recordings (Kraus, Uchida, Staier) and no real favourite. Then, I listened to the very last of the versions I had, an unofficial Zimerman recording (Vienna 2008) Mandryka had pointed to me. And here it was ! Perfect, elegant, simple at the same time, cantabile but articulated, neat but never cold, with many ideas but never falling into mannerism. There really is something in Zimerman's playing I find more and more interesting in the recent years. I don't know if I can find any better reading than this one for K.330, and really recommend it anyway.

I listened to 18 versions of K.330. The less satisfying ones were Van Cliburn (cold, rigid, slow, totally uninteresting), Gould (as usual, brutal, mechanical, caricatural), Horowitz (the 1985 studio, very mannered and technically weak). Then, not very good, mediocre but not unbearable, were Kocsis (mechanical, acking any subtlety and variety), Barenboim (mostly because of rough editing and Barenboim's hard touch), Brendel 1998 (unstable and limited technique, flat vision, though the Andante is a little better) and Würtz (as usual, unfortunately).

Updated list of favourites :

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
10 (K.330): Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)

By the way, I listened to 2 more versions of K.310 (again !). Kempff is really one of the worst, brutal, technically very unstable, he starts sometimes with interesting choices but then his playing is so harsh it becomes very frustrating. I also listened to Barenboim 1966 (Westminster), full of ideas and spontaneity, almost gilelsian in a way, only small technical flaws and strange metallic notes of the piano prevent it to be one of the best versions I heard.

Now starting K.331...

I agree with what you say about the  Vienna Zimerman 330, and what you say betrays its limitations. The performance is emotionally naive, technically perfect maybe and maybe stylish, but boring as fuck. It would be more forgiveable if the limitation was in the music, but I don't believe it is, and Lubimov and the late Brendel find more interesting, more complex, darker feelings. For this reason I prefer them to Edwin Fischer, Kraus, Zimerman, Pletnev, Leonhardt, Gulda etc. Another one who seems to really understand this music is Haskil.

Lubimov's style with Mozart is catching my attention more and more, precisely because he sometimes finds a level of expression which completely eludes most of the others. Another one who is often interesting in the 33X sonatas is Gulda - but the touch, the timbre he makes, at least as it sounds on the recordings, doesn't appeal.

Gould, by the way, recorded 330 twice, once in the studio (I think it's not very interesting)  and once (much more conventionally) live in Salzburg. The latter I used to play a lot years ago, I don't know how I'd feel about it now.

Kocsis allocates energy levels in the music in an interesting way - relatively reposed sections are followed by intense sections. The narrative is a story of changing energy. And the result for me is very interesting and destabilising and communicative. His touch is presumably hard like that because he thinks that percussiveness is part of the poetry of the music - and he could be right.

I wish you luck with 331 and those variations. The two which have appealed most to me are Yudina and Lubimov.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Cosi bel do

I don't agree at all with Zimerman being boring, on the contrary. This is why I was discussing Zimerman's evolution, from the cold and sometimes mannered pianist he was to a more humble and humane artist. This K.330 is a sign of that.

I had forgotten about Gould's Salzburg K.330, I'll try that.

As I said, Kocsis is mechanical and univocal ("boring as fuck" applies well to his interpretations). Also, I spoke of hardness, not percussiveness. Gilels is percussive, and he is great.

I keep Lubimov for later, I know he'll be a delight :)

But Brendel... No... This is indefensible... Such unstable piano playing wouldn't even allow him to express "complexity" or "dark feelings", even if he had any to express (which isn't the case, from what I heard).

Cosi bel do

I'm almost finished with K.331, my conclusions here tomorrow I guess.

Meanwhile, I've also listened to two more K.330 versions.

Gould's live 1959 version, as suggested by Mandryka, is one of three versions by the guy (with studio versions recorded in 1958 and 1970). It's not all bad (as the first version, that I actually slightly prefer), but still a little too weird and mechanical, also quite turgid at times... Not really interesting overall.

Also, I tried Gieseking, I don't think I had listened to him since I started this comparison. And it is just perfect. Simple, not refined or artificial at all, but infinitely gracious, a perfect blend of fantasy, spontaneity and control. He is the best in K.330, I think.

Then I also listened again to Zimerman, and I confirm I consider his version as really excellent, without any technical or rhetorical flaw. I have to listen to the Pathétique that follows asap...

Updated list of favourites :

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
10 (K.330): Walter Gieseking (1953), Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)

Moonfish

Are you listening to Kraus' 2nd cycle as well (60s?)?
"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Mandryka

#613
Quote from: Discobolus on November 14, 2014, 03:20:34 PM
I'm almost finished with K.331, my conclusions here tomorrow I guess.

Meanwhile, I've also listened to two more K.330 versions.

Gould's live 1959 version, as suggested by Mandryka, is one of three versions by the guy (with studio versions recorded in 1958 and 1970). It's not all bad (as the first version, that I actually slightly prefer), but still a little too weird and mechanical, also quite turgid at times... Not really interesting overall.

Also, I tried Gieseking, I don't think I had listened to him since I started this comparison. And it is just perfect. Simple, not refined or artificial at all, but infinitely gracious, a perfect blend of fantasy, spontaneity and control. He is the best in K.330, I think.

Then I also listened again to Zimerman, and I confirm I consider his version as really excellent, without any technical or rhetorical flaw. I have to listen to the Pathétique that follows asap...

Updated list of favourites :

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
10 (K.330): Walter Gieseking (1953), Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)

For 331 two that I enjoyed were Yudina and Gieseking (live)

Thanks for pointing out Gieseking in 330, which I liked very much.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Cosi bel do

Quote from: Moonfish on November 14, 2014, 04:52:59 PM
Are you listening to Kraus' 2nd cycle as well (60s?)?

No, I'll start again with some other cycles afterwards (Kraus II, Haebler, Schoonderwoerd, Lubimov, Arrau....).

Cosi bel do

Quote from: Mandryka on November 14, 2014, 08:22:59 PM
For 331 two that I enjoyed were Yudina and Gieseking (live)

Thanks for pointing out Gieseking in 330, which I liked very much.

Thanks for pointing out Gieseking live, and Serkin in Tokyo too :)

Mandryka

#616
http://www.youtube.com/v/niK1JvEzylY

It's a successful "elegant-style" version of the first movement -- maybe I could do with a bit more pain and doom, I'm not sure.

I have the recording now, which also has a K475. If anyone wants it they can PM me.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Cosi bel do

K.331 now. It might seem funny but I really didn't get tired of it even after hearing it 18 times in 3 days. But as usual it also comes from the fact that there are really very contrasting interpretations.
It doesn't mean I enjoyed all this time listening. On the contrary, this is one of the worst played from Mozart's that I have listened to until now. On these 18 readings there are only 10 of them I find at least merely "fine", acceptable recordings. And there are not that many really good ones.

Gieseking is one of the few pianists who succeed here. He plays the score as simply as possible, it is almost dry (the sound adds to this impression) but never rigid, a lot of true joy and the finale is exhilarating with his rural folk character. I slightly prefer the studio recording (1953 or 54?) over the live one (Montevideo 1952), a little imperfect and slightly more prudent, but still captivating of course !
Lili Kraus does it again here, and even better than ever ! Her incredibly detailed and imaginative reading is very touching, emotional and joyful at the same time. Captivating from the start to the end.

Good but quite far from these two : Ginzburg (live 1951), incredibly pure and precise but lacking a little spirit for my taste (and not without a few slight mistakes), Klien (1961), very detailed and gracious, but very formal, and Staier (2004), very imaginative, creative, personal (but maybe too much ? and not giving a feeling of complete spontaneity...)

The worst are Uchida (the most boring and flat version ever, not even pretty, I don't even understand how it does exist), Brendel 1999 (so mannered, vulgar and unrefined I felt nauseous), Gould (bad, narcissist and frustrating as always), then slightly less infuriating, the very boring Kempff, the very artificial Say, the quite unnecessary Würtz...

Updated list of favourites :

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
10 (K.330): Walter Gieseking (1953), Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)
11 (K.331): Walter Gieseking (1953), Lili Kraus (1954)

K.332, here I come...

Mandryka

#618
Quote from: Discobolus on November 15, 2014, 03:13:12 PM
K.331 now. It might seem funny but I really didn't get tired of it even after hearing it 18 times in 3 days. But as usual it also comes from the fact that there are really very contrasting interpretations.
It doesn't mean I enjoyed all this time listening. On the contrary, this is one of the worst played from Mozart's that I have listened to until now. On these 18 readings there are only 10 of them I find at least merely "fine", acceptable recordings. And there are not that many really good ones.

Gieseking is one of the few pianists who succeed here. He plays the score as simply as possible, it is almost dry (the sound adds to this impression) but never rigid, a lot of true joy and the finale is exhilarating with his rural folk character. I slightly prefer the studio recording (1953 or 54?) over the live one (Montevideo 1952), a little imperfect and slightly more prudent, but still captivating of course !
Lili Kraus does it again here, and even better than ever ! Her incredibly detailed and imaginative reading is very touching, emotional and joyful at the same time. Captivating from the start to the end.

Good but quite far from these two : Ginzburg (live 1951), incredibly pure and precise but lacking a little spirit for my taste (and not without a few slight mistakes), Klien (1961), very detailed and gracious, but very formal, and Staier (2004), very imaginative, creative, personal (but maybe too much ? and not giving a feeling of complete spontaneity...)

The worst are Uchida (the most boring and flat version ever, not even pretty, I don't even understand how it does exist), Brendel 1999 (so mannered, vulgar and unrefined I felt nauseous), Gould (bad, narcissist and frustrating as always), then slightly less infuriating, the very boring Kempff, the very artificial Say, the quite unnecessary Würtz...

Updated list of favourites :

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
10 (K.330): Walter Gieseking (1953), Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)
11 (K.331): Walter Gieseking (1953), Lili Kraus (1954)

K.332, here I come...

And what did you think of Yudina's 331? Horszowski used to be another favourite of mine in 331.

For 332 I like Landowska and Brendel's final recording on Philips. Lubimov's not bad either, and I remember enjoying Freire years ago - but it's a long time since I heard it.  The first movement is very difficult to get off the page because it's so repetitious, like the variations in 331.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Leo K.


Quote from: Discobolus on November 15, 2014, 03:13:12 PM
K.331
The worst are Uchida (the most boring and flat version ever, not even pretty, I don't even understand how it does exist), Brendel 1999 (so mannered, vulgar and unrefined I felt nauseous), Gould (bad, narcissist and frustrating as always),


These are among my most treasured Mozart piano recordings, THANK GOD they exist :)