Mozart piano sonatas

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 05:16:34 AM

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Cosi bel do

Quote from: Mandryka on November 15, 2014, 08:34:16 PM
And what did you think of Yudina's 331? Horszowski used to be another favourite of mine in 331.

For 332 I like Landowska and Brendel's final recording on Philips. Lubimov's not bad either, and I remember enjoying Freire years ago - but it's a long time since I heard it.  The first movement is very difficult to get off the page because it's so repetitious, like the variations in 331.

Yudina's 331 (live in 1951) is very interesting, with its unique vivacious, percussive (but never cold, heavy or hard) style. The first movement is very striking, it's a very nice and subtle reading overall. Of course there are many small mistakes, the last movement is quite fragile in this version. But it's still very pleasant, not an absolute reference but a recording not to be missed.

About Horszowski, I think I found a way to listen to his sonatas at last. I'll listen to the whole cycle after this first round of comparison, now that I am nearly finished with it.

Thanks for your suggestions in 332, I won't forget them ;)

Mandryka

#621


I feel pretty positive about this one from Yasuko Mitsui, stumbled across by accident on spotify. Who she?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Cosi bel do

Never heard about her. Means more to listen to 8)

Meanwhile, I'm finishing my K.332 first comparison. It's really not one of my favourite sonatas, but there are very nice versions. And for the moment I don't feel that as many pianists entirely miss the point as in K.331.

Cosi bel do

As I said already, K.332 isn't (at all) among my favourite Mozart sonatas. But three versions really sounded incredible and unveiled astonishing beauties behind this score.

Artur Schnabel (1946) is the most spontaneous, full of spirit, of light, and technically almost perfect, which makes this performance even more special. Lili Kraus (1954) is as always full of detail and insightful, but all that with a sublime will to make this score sing, talk, raise questions and answer them... This discourse kept me captivated and involved from the first bar to the last.
Then, no version really was at the same level. Even the beautiful Dezso Ranki (1978-79), despite being a true artistic culmination, sounds lacking a little spirit after these two. Few versions were really less than average (Gould and Würtz, well, again...) or not much more (Kempff live 1967, Uchida, Horszowski live, Brendel 2000) but many other versions were good, really good sometimes, just with this small difference with a true extraordinary performance (Perlemuter, Casadesus, Pires I, Barenboim, all very interesting versions with no unacceptable flaw).
Then I heard Andreas Staier (2004) and, though he sounded a little too neat, lacking tension in K.330 and 331, here, it was just like I had never heard it before. And most of all the slow movement is incredibly beautiful, nobody else plays it with such subtlety and sensitiveness.
I finished with Eliso Virsaladze (live 2008), a truly excellent performance, almost perfect in concert, lively, just behind the 3 I nominate my favourites.

Updated list of favourites :

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
10 (K.330): Walter Gieseking (1953), Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)
11 (K.331): Walter Gieseking (1953), Lili Kraus (1954)
12 (K.332): Artur Schnabel (1946), Lili Kraus (1954), Andreas Staier (2004)

OK let's keep the momentum, a few days and I shall have finished (and be able to start again with other cycles...)

Mandryka

#624
For 333 I hope you'll have the chance to try Moravec. But it's in 457 that things really start to get interesting again because you have really radically different approaches - people like Yudina and Haebler (Denon.) And there's also 475.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Cosi bel do

Yes in 475/457 I think I'll start with versions including both pieces and then I'll check versions with 475 or 457 alone (a really absurd choice imo but I'll try to forget that). 475/457 is indeed one of my favourite parts of Mozart's piano music.

I'll try this Moravec versions  ; )

Mandryka

#626
457 with or without 475 is a major piece of music. Just trying to recall ones that have made a big impression on modern piano, there's above all one from Richter. Richter's amazing in the final movement. But the new Ciccolini is not to be sneezed at. And nor is Yudina.

I'm not at all clear in my own mind about the value of 475 as a prelude, I should try to understand that a bit better some time. 

I have a couple of live ones you may want to hear, Sokolov with good sound for once, in 2001. And Pollini in London. Let me know if yo want them.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Cosi bel do

Of course I do want them ! :)
I'll listen to the other ones you mentioned of course, except Ciccolini I still have to get (both his recent Mozart CDs actually).

Cosi bel do

Yes I must have all that somewhere, but I think I'll listen to Sofronitzky after this first round because finding each of his recordings is a task in itself. Well except that now we talked about him I'm not sure I want to wait  :P

Mandryka

#629
Hello Scherzian.

Apart from Sofronitsky, Edwin Fischer recorded 475 without 457, as did Grigory Ginzburg (twice) and Nikolai Petrov. And didn't Cortot play pretty well the whole Fantasy on record? In those masterclass recordings that Murray Perahia compiled.

I remember being really impressed by the way Virssaladze handled the transition from 475 to the sonata, though I'm not sure I can say why. It's a good solid performamce that one, without quite having the magic of Richter's Zug recording (Stradivarius) - Richter gives the unforgettable impression of a man grappling with the score to really get to the heart of the music. The sheer level of focus, of seriousness, of rapt intensity, of intellectual, creative and physical means engaged to make music, is astonishing.

There's also Mozart/Grieg  ;)

457 is the only piano sonata I've ever heard played by Clifford Curzon and Dino Ciani.

Quote from: Discobolus on November 19, 2014, 09:16:45 AM
Of course I do want them ! :)
I'll listen to the other ones you mentioned of course, except Ciccolini I still have to get (both his recent Mozart CDs actually).

Ah, I had just assumed you had spotify access.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Leo K.

What a wonderful discussion in this thread - been loving it! And it's got me back to listening to Mozart's piano sonatas once again.

Cosi bel do

As you are already discussing K.475/475 I was still listening K.333 and trying not to get too impatient ::)

As in K.332, in K.333 Schnabel and Kraus were early strong contenders... Despite its imperfections, Artur Schnabel (1943-44) is really very interesting. But Lili Kraus is even better, she is already captivating in 1948, and manages to reinvent and deepend every aspect of her interpretation in 1954. This version has actually no equal in the whole discography, and I still preferred it after hearing many other versions that left me quite disappointed by several of them, including Wanda Landowska (1955), really slow and mechanical, lifeless ; or even frustrated, as with Sviatoslav Richter (live, 1966) who puts somewhat a great performance in Salzburg but suffers from a horrible piano and is unable to cover it as he does, more or less, in the rest of the same concert. Even the almost perfect Dezso Ranki (1978-79) lacked a little of the irresistible spirit one can find when listening to Kraus.
Then came Ivan Moravec (1982). And even if I think I still prefer Kraus, I can't deny Moravec is kind of perfect, elegant, sometimes almost mannered but with such a natural style that it never sounds artificial or out of place. With Moravec, the music breathes, everything is alive with an extreme spontaneity and flexibility. With Kraus 1954, Moravec is my second "5 stars" version.
A few names were remaining, that were not necessarily among my favourites, but I could expect them to do better than they really did, including Daniel Barenboim or Mitsuko Uchida, or Fazil Say (while those I feared I wouldn't like, mainly Würtz and Brendel, did indeed make me suffer, the latter succeeding in giving a paradoxically utterly flat, disgracious and pretentious performance at the same time).
But in the end a third name joined Kraus and Moravec on my personal list of final favourites, and it is the most unpredictable one : Vladimir Horowitz. He had taken me by surprise in K.281, and completely disappointed me in K.330. Here, the two versions I heard, the studio in Milan in 1987 (recorded with concerto K.488 with Giulini), and the live in Hamburg (the last concert), were surprisingly different in many ways, but both completely fascinating in their alliance between detail and subtelty, without ever sounding too mannered, thanks to a complete and touching sincerity...
These three big versions are quite different but they share, in the end, a few qualities. Lili Kraus, Ivan Moravec and Vladimir Horowitz were three very generous figures, sensitive artists with unique personalities, and a sincere humility. And these are, I guess, essential components of a true mozartian artist...

Updated list of favourites :

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
10 (K.330): Walter Gieseking (1953), Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)
11 (K.331): Walter Gieseking (1953), Lili Kraus (1954)
12 (K.332): Artur Schnabel (1946), Lili Kraus (1954), Andreas Staier (2004)
13 (K.333): Lili Kraus (1954), Ivan Moravec (1982), Vladimir Horowitz (1987, studio), Vladimir Horowitz (1987, live in Munich)

I'm quite happy to get to the final sonatas, I had difficulties to maintain the rythm of my listening during K.330-333 : more versions, for works I don't really adore...
For K.475/457 I'll start with all versions where both pieces are played (and recorded) together, and listen other versions of each afterwards.

kishnevi

Which gives me a cue to bring Horowitz's remark that Chopin should be played like Mozart, and Mozart played like Chopin.

Mandryka

#633
Quote from: Discobolus on November 22, 2014, 05:21:20 PM
As you are already discussing K.475/475 I was still listening K.333 and trying not to get too impatient ::)

As in K.332, in K.333 Schnabel and Kraus were early strong contenders... Despite its imperfections, Artur Schnabel (1943-44) is really very interesting. But Lili Kraus is even better, she is already captivating in 1948, and manages to reinvent and deepend every aspect of her interpretation in 1954. This version has actually no equal in the whole discography, and I still preferred it after hearing many other versions that left me quite disappointed by several of them, including Wanda Landowska (1955), really slow and mechanical, lifeless ; or even frustrated, as with Sviatoslav Richter (live, 1966) who puts somewhat a great performance in Salzburg but suffers from a horrible piano and is unable to cover it as he does, more or less, in the rest of the same concert. Even the almost perfect Dezso Ranki (1978-79) lacked a little of the irresistible spirit one can find when listening to Kraus.
Then came Ivan Moravec (1982). And even if I think I still prefer Kraus, I can't deny Moravec is kind of perfect, elegant, sometimes almost mannered but with such a natural style that it never sounds artificial or out of place. With Moravec, the music breathes, everything is alive with an extreme spontaneity and flexibility. With Kraus 1954, Moravec is my second "5 stars" version.
A few names were remaining, that were not necessarily among my favourites, but I could expect them to do better than they really did, including Daniel Barenboim or Mitsuko Uchida, or Fazil Say (while those I feared I wouldn't like, mainly Würtz and Brendel, did indeed make me suffer, the latter succeeding in giving a paradoxically utterly flat, disgracious and pretentious performance at the same time).
But in the end a third name joined Kraus and Moravec on my personal list of final favourites, and it is the most unpredictable one : Vladimir Horowitz. He had taken me by surprise in K.281, and completely disappointed me in K.330. Here, the two versions I heard, the studio in Milan in 1987 (recorded with concerto K.488 with Giulini), and the live in Hamburg (the last concert), were surprisingly different in many ways, but both completely fascinating in their alliance between detail and subtelty, without ever sounding too mannered, thanks to a complete and touching sincerity...
These three big versions are quite different but they share, in the end, a few qualities. Lili Kraus, Ivan Moravec and Vladimir Horowitz were three very generous figures, sensitive artists with unique personalities, and a sincere humility. And these are, I guess, essential components of a true mozartian artist...

Updated list of favourites :

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
10 (K.330): Walter Gieseking (1953), Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)
11 (K.331): Walter Gieseking (1953), Lili Kraus (1954)
12 (K.332): Artur Schnabel (1946), Lili Kraus (1954), Andreas Staier (2004)
13 (K.333): Lili Kraus (1954), Ivan Moravec (1982), Vladimir Horowitz (1987, studio), Vladimir Horowitz (1987, live in Munich)

I'm quite happy to get to the final sonatas, I had difficulties to maintain the rythm of my listening during K.330-333 : more versions, for works I don't really adore...
For K.475/457 I'll start with all versions where both pieces are played (and recorded) together, and listen other versions of each afterwards.

Those late recordings from Landowska are not very good. And I was very pleasantly surprised by how very humane Moravec is in this sonata. I also agree that  Horowitz's final concert recording is valuable - if I remember right the Schumann (Klavierstucke) are also much better than he managed elsewhere - "touching" and "sincere" seem to me good adjectives for what he does.

Richter played 333 right through his career, I have a recording from Chiavari in 1990.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Some modern piano recordings of 475/457 that have caught my attention as being worth hearing:

Arrau (Tanglewood 1964. He was very much on form that night.)
Yudina
Richter (Zug - others may be equally good, I've always felt so happy with this one I haven't checked)
Moravec

And maybe just a notch below, but maybe not

Glenn Gould
Valery Affanasiev
Michael Endres

I haven't had a chance to revist Kraus and Klien.

On fortepiano, I'd have to think some more, but one which impressed me a lot for the way it's held in check in the first movement is Colin Tilney's. I certainly think it's worth hearing.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Cosi bel do

Thanks Mandryka for your suggestions. The only one I can't seem to find is Richter's Zug performance. It has been released on Stradivarius, but I still can't find it on Amazon...

Cosi bel do

I'm almost through with the K.475/457 combined versions. Meanwhile I also listened to the two K.333 versions by Richter that I still had to listen to. The 1990 artisanal recording from Chiavari is pretty, but sound quality there is really a problem. From what I hear, though, it's the late Richter we all know : very subtle, controlled, but with exceptional power and risk taking (with occasional and almost insignificant flaws) : very interesting, captivating. But not comparable to what Richter could do in 1966. And while I already said what I thought of the concert in Salzburg, completely wasted by a badly tuned piano (what a shame, really !) the live in Prague is really exceptional. It might even be the greatest performance of this sonata. It is just technically perfect and with so much life and spontaneity that you can't imagine it better played. So, this version joins my other favourites (but 5 of them means I'll compare them again one of these days).

That being said, I'd like Praga to release the Mozart recordings again soon, apart from releasing recordings by other composers that were not even made in Prague !

Updated list of favourites :

1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
10 (K.330): Walter Gieseking (1953), Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)
11 (K.331): Walter Gieseking (1953), Lili Kraus (1954)
12 (K.332): Artur Schnabel (1946), Lili Kraus (1954), Andreas Staier (2004)
13 (K.333): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (live in Prague, 1966), Ivan Moravec (1982), Vladimir Horowitz (1987, studio), Vladimir Horowitz (1987, live in Munich)

Cosi bel do

#637
I awkwardly edited and lost this post. Sorry :(

It was about K.475/457 combined versions.
My favourite versions are Ivan Moravec (1967), Elisso Virsaladze (live in Munich, 1995) and Jos van Immerseel (1996). Just behind are Maria Yudina (live in Moscow, 1951), Sviatoslav Richter (live in Zug, 1991, slightly more perfect than the Ludwigsburg concert, but both are great and actually quite different performances), and Grigory Sokolov (live in Schwezingen, 2001).
Infamous performances are those by Kempff, Gould, Uchida, and most of all Afanassiev.

Sorry again I lost my previous detailed opinions.

Cosi bel do

I'm getting towards the end of my comparison, the first round of it anyway as I'll still have a number of cycles to listen to progressively after that.

After the combined K.475/457 versions, I listened to a few versions of each of the two works recorded separately. And they were all forgettable at most, except one version of K.457, by Annie Fischer (live in London, 1971, BBC Legends 4166). It's a very particular version, Fischer's piano is as usual very massive, romantic, powerful, schumannian... But it's also incredibly elegant, insightful, generous and spontaneous at the same time. I still rank it behind Moravec, Virsaladze and Van Immerseel, but would still recommend it among first choices.
No other recording of K.475 struck me as really unavoidable, even Edwin Fischer (but I only heard his 1941 version, couldn't find his 1947 recording apparently).

In K.533/494, the choice is not as varied as with most other sonatas but there are still very strong versions. But I still find a variety of issues even with the best of them. Peter Rösel (1982), for instance, plays it wonderfully, I mean, it is one of the most technically perfect Mozart performances on record, and it is detailed, subtle, and with gorgeous sound. It just sounds lacking a little spontaneity in the end. His sense of perfection is one of the strengths of Rösel, of course, but the result sounds just slightly too formal for my taste in Mozart.
Mikhaïl Pletnev's recording for Melodiya (1984) is very different, very personal, no other recording compares to it, and it is captivating, fascinating. But originality also leads to a few weaknesses, the result is original, creative, overwhelming, but it is not really Mozart anymore you're listening to. I would rank it as a really essential, indispensable version, but it can't be said a "first choice".
In the end, two versions are my personal nominees for best version. Sviatoslav Richter's live in 1989, in Como, is a wonderful performance, one of the top-notch Mozart performances by Richter. I still have to hear his 1966 Prague version though, I had forgotten it. And the other "best" version in my opinion is Jos van Immerseel (1996). Again, as in K.457/475, I was unsure about my fond memory of it. In the end, this opinion is entirely justified, it is a gorgeous and incredibly detailed and subtle recording. Every aspect of the sonata is rendered with colours, expressiveness, tenderness, but all contrasts are kept strong, nothing sounds mannered, on the contrary, the sense of quasi-improvisation is kept all along.
In addition to Richter 1966, I just saw I had forgotten Gilels 1972. Well, that's something I'll straighten out shortly.

The short K.545 allows for a speedy comparison, it's quite nice after K.533, which allows for the longest performances among Mozart sonatas. After hearing a half dozen, I'm sure Lili Kraus, at least, will be among my favourites.

Updated list of favourites :

Sonata 1 (K.279): Lili Kraus (1954), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
Sonata 2 (K.280): Lili Kraus (1954), Clara Haskil (1961)
Sonata 3 (K.281): Lili Kraus (1954), Emil Gilels (1970), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
Sonata 4 (K.282): Samuil Feinberg (1953), Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live), Andreas Staier (2003), Elisso Virsaladze (2013)
Sonata 5 (K.283): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (1966, live), Dezső Ránki (1978-79), Dezső Ránki (1997, live)
Sonata 6 (K.284): Daniel Barenboim (1984-1985)
Sonata 7 (K.309): Sviatoslav Richter (1968, live in Prague), Daniel Barenboim (1984-85)
Sonata 8 (K.310): Dinu Lipatti (1950, studio in Geneva + live in Besançon), Emil Gilels (1971, live in Ossiach), Alexei Lubimov (198?), Sviatoslav Richter (1989, live in London)
Sonata 9 (K.311): Lili Kraus (1954), Dezső Ránki (1978-78)
Sonata 10 (K.330): Walter Gieseking (1953), Krystian Zimerman (live in Vienna, 2008)
Sonata 11 (K.331): Walter Gieseking (1953), Lili Kraus (1954)
Sonata 12 (K.332): Artur Schnabel (1946), Lili Kraus (1954), Andreas Staier (2004)
Sonata 13 (K.333): Lili Kraus (1954), Sviatoslav Richter (live in Prague, 1966), Ivan Moravec (1982), Vladimir Horowitz (1987, studio), Vladimir Horowitz (1987, live in Munich)
Fantasy K.475 + Sonata 14 (K.457): Ivan Moravec (1967), Elisso Virsaladze (live in Munich, 1995), Jos van Immerseel (1996)
K.475 recorded alone: -
K.457 recorded alone: Annie Fischer (live in London, 1971)
Sonata 15 (K.533/494): Sviatoslav Richter (live in Como, 1989), Jos van Immerseel (1996)
Sonata 16 (K.545): Lili Kraus (1954)
Sonata 17 (K.570):
Sonata 18 (K.576):

Mandryka

I'm very pleased you got something from the Pletnev, it took me a long time to see how interesting it is



The series, Great Piano Music of the World, is well known for containng misattributions. I once discussed this CD with Farhan Malik, an expert on Russian piano performance, and he was confident that it is authentic.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen