how does some music sound happy and sad at the same time?

[dtwilbanks]

Depends on the chords.


And dynamics, and articulation and timbre . . . there are many options other than "angry" here! :-)

Yeah! I think it would be fun to compose.

[karlhenning]

It is fun; I could never deny that  0:)

[George]

Depends on the chords.
And dynamics, and articulation and timbre . . . there are many options other than "angry" here! :-)

What can I say, I'm in an angry mood. 

Plus I was considering a major and minor chord with the same root, thus creating a minor second in the third of the chord. This minor second would then sound dissonant or "angry," at least according to the early composers. I suppose dissonance could be sad, but not happy IMO and thus would not achieve the original purpose.

Don't listen to me though, it's just another case of me taking you Libras too seriously. 
 

[karlhenning]

What can I say, I'm in an angry mood. 

I don't believe it, George! 

Plus I was considering a major and minor chord with the same root, thus creating a minor second in the third of the chord. This minor second would then sound dissonant or "angry," at least according to the early composers.

I think there are deliciously delicate possibilities with this, though.  Say rather than having the two triads, major and minor, blocked off against one another (which could readily be made to 'clash') . . . say we just worked with one chord, with both the major and minor thirds present . . . let's say (and enharmonically re-spelling the minor third) our four-note chord is F, G#, A and C.  As a rule (even though we can make even a minor second sound sweet) the inversion, the major seventh, sounds gentler.  The dissonance of this interval will be further 'gentled' by having other chord-tones spaced in between . . . if we have four singers, or a string quartet, play the chord piano in the voicing A - F - C - G# (bass to soprano) . . . I think we could make it sound very dolce indeed.

Don't listen to me though, it's just another case of me taking you Libras too seriously. 

Well, that's a mistake you won't make again 

[George]

I think there are deliciously delicate possibilities with this, though.  Say rather than having the two triads, major and minor, blocked off against one another (which could readily be made to 'clash') . . . say we just worked with one chord, with both the major and minor thirds present . . . let's say (and enharmonically re-spelling the minor third) our four-note chord is F, G#, A and C.  As a rule (even though we can make even a minor second sound sweet) the inversion, the major seventh, sounds gentler.  The dissonance of this interval will be further 'gentled' by having other chord-tones spaced in between . . . if we have four singers, or a string quartet, play the chord piano in the voicing A - F - C - G# (bass to soprano) . . . I think we could make it sound very dolce indeed.

Ok, so I assume the root of the chord would be F. How would you then label the resultant chord? I want to hear it on my guitar. 

[BachQ]

For sad/happy music at the same time, I think that Bach's opening aria of the Golderg Variations applies.

Perhaps we need a definition of "happy" ........ I don't think of that opening aria as "happy" ........ Contemplative and ruminating, yes ....... but "happy?"

[karlhenning]

Ok, so I assume the root of the chord would be F. How would you then label the resultant chord? I want to hear it on my guitar. 

We'd need Andy to help out here;  I never had to label such a chord doing figured bass for a Bach chorale 

[Cato]

Cato wrote

The easy answer - obvious - is how the composer juggles major and minor: my favorite example is Ravel's Le Tombeau de Couperin

Of course, how precisely the composer juggles major and minor is not easy!   

Yes, but you can also have minor-key (mode) happiness and major-key (mode) sadness .........

Agreed, but the question was the mixing or the "bittersweet" aspect. 

[BachQ]

Agreed, but the question was the mixing or the "bittersweet" aspect. 

Well, then this thread should be relabelled the "bittersweet" thread.  As I understand the initial thrust of this thread, it seeks out cases where there is simultaneously "happiness" (in the discrete sense) and "sadness" (separately) ........ instances where these two independent feelings (emotions) coexist yet remain separate ....... and are separately identifiable as such.

"Bittersweet" is neither happy nor sad ....... it's "bittersweet" .........

Much like "grey" is neither black nor white ....... it's "grey"

Had I known that this thread was about "bittersweet," then I never would have participated.  I'm phoning my lawyers.

[karlhenning]

They're not taking your calls 

[Justin Ignaz Franz Bieber]

here are a couple more examples, if anyone cares:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0007XHL0C001002/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_002/002-2676169-1063200
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0007XHL0C001008/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_008/002-2676169-1063200
/\ froberger is known for writing "loner music"; maybe there's some connection there. he seems to do this kind of "happy" very well.

Perhaps we need a definition of "happy" ........ I don't think of that opening aria as "happy" ........ Contemplative and ruminating, yes ....... but "happy?"

i don't really think of the goldberg's aria as "happy" either. to me it sounds like it has SOME "happy" in it but i also hear a bunch of other things also & it's hard for me to describe what they are. my musical vocabulary is seriously lacking. How about a calm, thoughtful kind of "happy," maybe more like solitude (which is different from loneliness)? how does solitude feel?

[btpaul674]

Ok, so I assume the root of the chord would be F. How would you then label the resultant chord? I want to hear it on my guitar. 

i'd loosely call it a #9 chord.



Consider exhibit A: Rautavaara Piano Concerto No. 1 op. 45 1st mvt. written in 1969.

The opening arpeggiated chord in the left hand is D-F-F#-A up and down the piano while the right hand plays the clusters chords on E, cluster D, cluster C, cluster B, cluster A. You get a real sense for happy versus sad in that opening 2 measures. (its in 4/2). He then moves to a BbM7 chord with F in the bass (arpeggiate F A Bb D up and down) back to the D-F-F#-A chord, then makes the subdominant shift to G-Bb-Bnat-D (yet another case of major and minor together). One of the large components of that whole movement is motions of that Major/Minor chord and Major 7th chords. He clusters D-F-F#-A in the left hand with F-A-Bb-D in the right hand quite frequently in that piece. Its gorgeous.

Playing this opening many times, I'd agree with the statement "it makes me sad when I am happy and it makes me happy when I'm sad." Aesthetically I'd probably call a simultaneous major and minor chord 'anguished glory.'


karl,

yes, your A-F-C-G# chord is very dolce.  in Rautavaara's context.

[m_gigena]

Examples, please.

Chopin, of course.

Many of his works sound sad even in the passages written in major tonalities. I always think this when listening to the e minor concerto: the fast and dazzling major sections are not less nostalgic or gloomy than the minor ones. And that's why I love the concerto so much, it's like watching the performance of a sad clown.
Could that be because the fast scales and arpeggios are modulating all the time?

[Ten thumbs]

The chord at the end of Scriabin Op74.4 is about as desolate as one can get, so the major/minor mix does not always work.
A-e-c1-a1-c2#
Obviously context has much to do with it.
Consider also the close of Rachmaninoff's Etude-Tableau Op33.3 (Op Posth.) in C major.

[Mozart]

Yes, but you can also have minor-key (mode) happiness and major-key (mode) sadness .........

Mozart's c minor mass.