Stockhausen's Spaceship

Started by Cato, September 21, 2007, 06:24:19 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

CRCulver

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 15, 2017, 07:27:07 PM
I've also been reading casually, another edition of this book:

I know that in interviews Harvey stated in the 1960s he absolutely worshiped Stockhausen, but did Harvey ever comment on the direction Stockhausen took starting in the mid-1970s?

ritter

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 16, 2017, 04:01:21 PM
I'm not sure, the book though is all Pre-Licht music, still a satisfying read.

I really want to read an analysis/context/bio book of Licht (if there is one at all...), the closest thing I found when it comes to comprehensive oversight,  is the Stockhausen: Sounds in space blog - http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.co.nz/ (another great resource)  :D

But a book??  :(

Does Nathanb know ?  :-\
There's this book, part of a trilogy written by Rudolf Frisius and published by Schott in Germany:

[asin]3795707722[/asin]
Frisius's previous tomes were i) an introduction to the "complete works"--with intreviews--and ii) a survey of the works between 1950 and 1977. I have that second volume, and it is an interesting read and rather useful. This third volume covers the big, late cycles (i.e. Licht and Klang). I'm afraid it has not been translated into English.  :(

James

Quote from: CRCulver on April 16, 2017, 03:51:35 PM
I know that in interviews Harvey stated in the 1960s he absolutely worshiped Stockhausen, but did Harvey ever comment on the direction Stockhausen took starting in the mid-1970s?

I know something about this so I'll comment. BBC3 ran a documentary on Stockhausen's life and work right around the time he was just turning 70. I recorded the audio and have it. Harvey is featured throughout, and was very optimistic and positive about Stockhausen's later work, namely the LICHT cycle .. which he basically calls "just extraordinary" for various reasons. It's safe to say that he stayed with him and always admired what he was up to.
Action is the only truth

Mandryka

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 16, 2017, 04:01:21 PM
I'm not sure, the book though is all Pre-Licht music, still a satisfying read.

I really want to read an analysis/context/bio book of Licht (if there is one at all...), the closest thing I found when it comes to comprehensive oversight,  is the Stockhausen: Sounds in space blog - http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.co.nz/ (another great resource)  :D

But a book??  :(

Does Nathanb know ?  :-\

Have you had a look at Robin Maconie's book called Other Planets? I haven't, but someone recommended it to me when I, like you, was interested in reading ideas about Licht and Klang.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

James

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 23, 2017, 04:22:32 AM
Man I love Licht <3 <3

Samstag, Donnerstag and Montag are where it's at!  8)

I know Stockhausen well (so many of today's composers who are branded 'new-ish' (a fallacy) just rip off stuff he already tried (and mostly failed) .. anyhow .. I like some bits from LICHT, but it's very, very over-indulgent, way over-long and in a lot of cases really, really boring.
Action is the only truth

James

I went through a period of basically listening to nothing but his music, this lasted for about 5-6 years. I know all the "operas" very well. I know Stockhausen's body of work like the back of my hand. It takes time to let things settle and clarity sink in - to reach real perspective. And he has nothing in common with Wagner, I hate when people try to compare him to that Giant. People who do are uneducated and have no ears. Stockhausen in no way, shape or form comes close to Wagner's music. Heck, even Wagner's "bloody chunks" destroy everything Stockhausen did. Having said this .. Stockhausen was one of the best classical composers of his time, but this speaks to how crappy his era was - most composers (including him) wasted their great talent searching for new worlds, most of it failed to take hold and overall it's very, very patchy/splintered in it's triumphs.
Action is the only truth

James

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 23, 2017, 03:50:56 PM

I didn't compare their music stylistically to each other, lol
Stockhausen share a similar idea to Wagner's "Gesamtkunstwerk", take it or leave it and they where both highly ambitious. Wagner doesn't stand a chance against Stockhausen anyway  :P

Thin associations that are not even worth mentioning. Stockhausen was not on Wagner's level as a musician.

Wagner on a purely musical level, had a profound impact on the real development of music, it was truly music of the future that stretched everything to the limit .. and changed the direction it was going in in a major way. No one could pretend he didn't exist, they continued in that line (including the 2nd Viennese), few rebelled against it. He's one of the 4 or 5 composers (Bach, Beethoven, Wagner, Debussy, maybe Stravinsky) throughout history who managed to summarize everything that was written before them, create many major masterpieces, and truly influenced the future. All 3 of those. Some composers manage to write masterpieces, but they don't alter the course of history, others are uneven composers and have small impacts in tiny areas (Stockhausen, Berlioz etc.) - but history would essentially be unaltered without them.

Stockhausen had flashes of genius but was very uneven, he had impact in small areas of music. The 19th century was much more advanced and radical than the 20th century ever was on a musical level.
Action is the only truth

James

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 23, 2017, 04:41:40 PM
Yep, you're just talking out your ass  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Why do I even bother, when you just reply with this childish 3rd rate stuff that says nothing? I'm guessing you're in your early 20s or younger?
Action is the only truth

Karl Henning



Quote from: James on April 23, 2017, 04:45:01 PM
Why do I even bother?

We're all eternally grateful that you do.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

James

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 23, 2017, 05:04:11 PM
You highly underestimate or don't understand Berlioz at all if you think he had a small impact, lol, he changed orchestration forever and was also pushing tonality. You failed to mention Liszt's impact of Wagner too  ::)

I didn't come here for an argument, which you seem to be looking for with everyone, everywhere here lately  :laugh:

My age is of no concern but I am an adult in university, yes.


I get that you really prefer the romantic composers (and Bach) I get that but I happen to have a view on the opposite side of the spectrum, that you obviously don't like. So what?  :-\

My preferences have nothing to do with this, I'm trying to have a very level headed discourse. Berlioz was a very, very uneven composer, he had a small impact on the orchestra (largely in terms of color, Symphony Fantastic), but certainly nowhere near what Wagner did with the orchestra or musical expression/potential as a whole. Heck, Beethoven's vocabulary was far more advanced than Berlioz. Ditto the expression. I don't think any educated, realistic, level headed, rational person (regardless of their personal preferences) would put Berlioz (or Liszt!, or Stockhausen!) anywhere near the level of composers like Bach, Beethoven or Wagner.
Action is the only truth

ComposerOfAvantGarde

Decided to get more into stuff from Licht. Listening to everything from it that I can find on youtube. Currently listening to Mittwochs-Gruß and it is very pleasant.

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: James on April 23, 2017, 05:26:03 PM
My preferences have nothing to do with this, I'm trying to have a very level headed discourse. Berlioz was a very, very uneven composer, he had a small impact on the orchestra (largely in terms of color, Symphony Fantastic), but certainly nowhere near what Wagner did with the orchestra or musical expression/potential as a whole. Heck, Beethoven's vocabulary was far more advanced than Berlioz. Ditto the expression. I don't think any educated, realistic, level headed, rational person (regardless of their personal preferences) would put Berlioz (or Liszt!, or Stockhausen!) anywhere near the level of composers like Bach, Beethoven or Wagner.
I wouldn't say Berlioz is "very, very uneven" and I would place him at the top of the 2nd great group of composers behind the usual names like Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Wagner, and about the same level as Liszt. In addition to the Symphonie Fantastique his opera Les Troyens was a real gem and pretty ahead of his times. Hell they even call that opera "The French Ring". All in all he probably wrote more masterpieces than duds.

ComposerOfAvantGarde

The only thing I think is bombastic in Stockhausen's oeuvre (as I have heard so far) is the helicopter quartet. Not a fan of bombast, but what I find bombastic is probably a reflection of my own tastes and understanding of the music rather than a fault in his work.

ComposerOfAvantGarde

Why do you use 'bombastic' to mean 'really huge?'

I still have barely heard anything from Stockhausen's catalogue, but each piece I listen to is a joy. Particularly the things with electronics.

ComposerOfAvantGarde

What are your thoughts on the Helicopter quartet? Because I think that's bombastic.  :P

petrarch

//p
The music collection.
The hi-fi system: Esoteric X-03SE -> Pathos Logos -> Analysis Audio Amphitryon.
A view of the whole

otima

QuoteI went through a period of basically listening to nothing but his music, this lasted for about 5-6 years. I know all the "operas" very well. I know Stockhausen's body of work like the back of my hand. It takes time to let things settle and clarity sink in - to reach real perspective. And he has nothing in common with Wagner, I hate when people try to compare him to that Giant. People who do are uneducated and have no ears. Stockhausen in no way, shape or form comes close to Wagner's music. Heck, even Wagner's "bloody chunks" destroy everything Stockhausen did. Having said this .. Stockhausen was one of the best classical composers of his time, but this speaks to how crappy his era was - most composers (including him) wasted their great talent searching for new worlds, most of it failed to take hold and overall it's very, very patchy/splintered in it's triumphs.

Stockhausen has had a very big impact on art music aka western classical tradition. The fact that you regard Stravinsky (in your next post) as better than Stockhausen says a lot. Stravinsky "Der Kleine Modernsky" in the word of Schoenberg, was an important Representative of Neoclassicism for most of his life, but nothing more. He was hardly a renewer of music like Stockhausen

millionrainbows

My favorite Stockhausen works are Prozesion (first encountered on a cut-out LP in a K-Mart sale bin), Zyklus (I had the Max Niehaus version on LP, now available on CD), Zeitmass (Columbia Odyssey LP, now on CD, great liner notes by Robert Craft), Kontra-Punkte (and this was before Punk), Hymnen, Kurzwellen, Mantra, Stimmung, Song of the Youths (on CD now), Ceylon.

Cato

Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on September 04, 2017, 05:45:54 PM
I'm starting to see a strong correlation between Stockhausen's music and dreams now, after reading up on Trans. What do you Stockhausian's think?

That Stockhausen - or other composers and artists of all kinds - can be influenced by dreams, vivid or otherwise, is not so unusual.  The unconscious is often at work during sleep, and so, if the brain may desire to create something, but it remains vague, inchoate, during waking hours, the unconscious may try to work on the problem and provide something more specific via a dream.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

You did it

Stockhausen is a composer that over time I've come to not only enjoy along many of my other favorite modernist composers, but love extensively. His work covers such a broad scope of modernism and he was a constantly evolving and innovating person. To the extent that if you heard the story of his life and ambitions when someone just told you it, they would think you're just making it up  :laugh: