Topic: Stockhausen's Spaceship

[Scion7]

^ that vid's pretty 'orrible - I see he hasn't changed much over the decades.

[snyprrr]

I'd like to know what you think about Klavierstuck XI (VS) Boulez Sonata No.3. Both are each Composers' last word in the '50s.

Boulez seems to me to have more freedom? Does KS sound more... inextricable?

Perhaps I have a very delicate Boulez on DG contrasted with a much more atomic Kontarsky? I'd really love some honest opinions,... I haven't yet listened enough to matter,... but, I think I just 'like' the Boulez better. Perhaps I'm not comprehending KS's longer piano works. Boulez makes his architecture clear in No.3 (I mean for the listener, who can follow 'tracks', or isolate), where XI is 11mins. in one long movement.

Maybe this is a French/German thing?

[petrarch]

I'd like to know what you think about Klavierstuck XI (VS) Boulez Sonata No.3. Both are each Composers' last word in the '50s.

I like them both very much; I would say the Klavierstück XI definitely sounds 'rougher' than Sonata No. 3, but then in my opinion Boulez has overall a keener ear for sonority than Stockhausen had (some excellent pieces notwithstanding e.g. Klavierstück VII, Kontakte and a few others).

[petrarch]

I think I still have the scan files I made from my copy of the score of Klavierstück XI (scanned so that I could reassemble the score following the sequence of fragments in the Kontarsky recording). I can check and post them online somewhere if there is interest.

Also, to be more precise about the performance directions:
- There are six tempi, six modes of attack and six dynamic levels.
- As mentioned in the wiki, the tempo, mode of attach and dynamic level are indicated at the end of a fragment and dictate how the next one should be played. This is the aspect that Boulez had reservations about, since each fragment is therefore not 'stable'.
- Some groups end with a pause indication; that's why there are silences between groups.
- Some groups have the indication that they should be joined with the next, in which case the last note or chord of the group is to be held until the next group starts.
- When a group is arrived at for the second time, any directions or notation in brackets should apply. These are typically octave transpositions but there are also notes to be added or removed. This also changes the 'identity' and 'stability' of a group.
- The piece should be performed at least twice in the same concert; this will evince its mobile nature.

[Scion7]

Ahhhh - MUCH more listenable and constructive.  ^

 

[snyprrr]

Boulez gazing at Stockhausen's Klavierstück XI deep in thought,
concluded that the piece is inherently unstable, because it's segments
do not remain identifiably the same (in duration, tempo, dymanic, and touch)
from version to version.




Pierre Boulez in front of the score to Stockhausen's Klavierstück XI in his
apartment in Paris, 1958

(Photos: Ingi Paris)

Blurry distant view of what the score looks like as a whole, it's 19 fragments ..

Haha James, good one!!

That's just too funny!

[snyprrr]

The Stockhausen is more celebrated, more successful, more compelling & provocative. If you get on wiki you can read about this one, essentially there is a labyrinth of 19 musical fragments (with a complex & flexible underlying serial/rhythmic/dynamic plan) on a very large page (like 6 columns, 6 rows, i think) and the pianist decides where he wants to start on the spot and makes his choices as he proceeds through the labyrinth, the piece ends when he's arrived at the same fragment for the 3rd time. It's form is "mobile", non definitive; it's progression never "fixed", the performer determines the "final shape". The piece has a fragmentary, contemplative (music pauses as selections are made), spontaneous feel .. and no 2 performances are ever the same, but it depends on the performer and the energy they want to bring to it.

I've always preferred Stockhausen when it comes to music overall, just a much more creative, diverse, exciting vitality & energy .. and that's my honest opinion... though I love the Boulez Sonatas (my favorite Boulez!, did he ever finish the 3rd, least successful one?) .. .

And XI isn't one of the longer piano pieces .. VI, X, XII, XV (these are over 20 minutes) & XIII (is over 30). Then you have XIX for synthesizer and electronic music that hasn't been released or premiered yet, that one would be ca.35 minutes. Here is a good performance of XI .. 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/UmCT69F03wo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/UmCT69F03wo</a>

Listening to this beauty this morning .. (on disc, crystalline sound quality)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q-niHswSgug" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Q-niHswSgug</a>

Indeed, the video and Kontarsky are different. I could hear familiar snippets here and there between the two,... the video @7mins., Kontarsky @14mins.,...

I 'had it on' for about 3-4 times, but that was just enough to pick up some patterns from the video (like the trill). OK, so, I didn't know that this piece was as flexible as Boulez, or more so, or what. I'll continue on.

[eyeresist]

- As mentioned in the wiki, the tempo, mode of attach and dynamic level are indicated at the end of a fragment and dictate how the next one should be played. This is the aspect that Boulez had reservations about, since each fragment is therefore not 'stable'.

I find this method of randomising approach much more interesting than the structural aspect - it really elevates the element of "interpretation"!

[snyprrr]

I have the magnifying glass and will follow the score!

[k a rl h e nn i ng]

I have the magnifying glass telescope and will follow the score!

Corrigendum ; )

[snyprrr]

So, I've been going between the KS and the Boulez. After listening to KS a few times, I put in the Boulez 3, and huh, he's certainly using a whole lot less actual notes than KS. Boulez is like making a porcelain vase, whilst KS is written avant-garde piano music.

Still, Boulez has some ear tickling, but I was surprised how laid back it sounded next to the 11th. He seems to be only working with no more than a handful of notes at a time, with no acrobatics of real fireworks. Huh!

[snyprrr]

Ahhhh - MUCH more listenable and constructive.  ^

 

Funny, that's the stuff I don't like.

[snyprrr]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/vdIe2CrorMM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/vdIe2CrorMM</a>

That is definitely not my cup of tea.

[Lisztianwagner]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/JUmAK9744hA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/JUmAK9744hA</a>

Zyklus is a very brilliant work, very impressive.

[snyprrr]

What about it, makes you have such a definite conclusion? Just curious.

I suppose I've lived a lifetime with those sounds (not in that piece, but, its influence) and those sounds just don't do anything for me anymore. I hear it, and I hear "the '50s" or "the 60s",... it just reminds me of Italian sci-fi movies,... I mean, I listened to it once, is that not enough to decide?

I suppose I have been totally jaded concerning E/A (at least the old school variety). I simply think any one of us (maybe not ANY) could cobble together something with all the tech we have. We can make in five minutes what took him however long to experiment with. I'm just not going to accept that I can't do that,... well, IF I were to do it, I would rather do something like Xenakis's Persepolis, sounds that all evoke a certain feeling. KS here evokes for me "computer music", and I just get caught up in the CONCEIT and can't "enjoy" the "music".

I don't have to like everything by KS, do I?  I mean, I don't care about The Beatles, so all this "groundbreaking" stuff doesn't faze me (again, I've lived THROUGH all this,... Stockhausen 's influence was right there in the TV commercials, sound effects,... ubiquitous,... so, I hear no trailblazing, I hear only the end result, and, I need MORE salt!!

I would love to take a musical dump, time travel to 1955, and see what Boulez, Nono, and Stockhausen would say. I mean, if a prankster did this, and convinced the Trio of the Emperor's New Clothes,... I wonder how silly one could make them look for accepting a giant musical turd as a Masterpiece. It's just my "theory", but I find it hysterical,... what if one played a later work by Boulez for him in 1955 and he said it was crap?

Oy, what's the point in criticizing E/A? It's taken everything within me to be able to turn over Persepolis (which I use as falling asleep music,... it works!), but Ferrari and KS and the Americans,... I don't know, I just take it ALL for granted. I'm like, yea yea yea ,... next!

Frankly, all this leads me to E/A porn,... 'The Sounds of Love',... I mean, why didn't any of these guys just GO THERE? Weren't any of these guys approached by the CIA to create music that would disable an enemy (oh,... that was disco )?

Is this the kind of E/A a nice young German Catholic writes?

[petrarch]

I suppose I have been totally jaded concerning E/A (at least the old school variety). I simply think any one of us (maybe not ANY) could cobble together something with all the tech we have. We can make in five minutes what took him however long to experiment with.

The difference is in the art. If I put Xenakis' La Légende d'Eer on, or Stockhausen's Hymnen, I can't help but listen to them from start to finish. What makes them so captivating? It's the art...

[snyprrr]

The difference is in the art. If I put Xenakis' La Légende d'Eer on, or Stockhausen's Hymnen, I can't help but listen to them from start to finish. What makes them so captivating? It's the art...

Well,... I wish the theme to The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly went on for longer than two minutes!

Oh right, we're talking E/A.

Well, I'm arrogant and confident enough to say that the 'art' is a given,... that's why I have to automatically reject 99.6% off the bat. I'll give Stockhausen and Xenakis their due in this area (along with the usual suspects), but I think it is the longer work, such as the two you mentioned

I forget, was it Telemusik we're talking about? I mean, I'll try again, but if it starts to quack like a duck I'm moving on to the next piece. Frankly, that's why I prefer Persepolis to all these other pieces, because it doesn't DEMAND so much of me: it has a consistent 'theme' (the ancient world?), or sound profile throughout, so I can just lounge in the chaos of the multiplicities. With the Telemusik there's just so much stuff,... I'm stressed enough as it is , whew! Maybe I just wasn't in the mood?

I agree about the need for 'art' (working standards),... I mean, you all still agree that there aren't MANY works here that you would site, right? KS and IX and a few others (I've only got Varese and Gerhard, which are mixed media), but haven't we had this conversation


oy, it's late, I'm not making sense, goodnight!

[petrarch]

I have my eye on these 2 .. anyone out there have much experience with them?





http://www.stockhausen.org/refrain_2000.html

As usual, those are must-haves once you got the 'classics'.

That version of Spiral is actually quite good, even though I prefer the instruments in CD15 (the one on CD45 is also worthwhile, for an interesting take on the work, with oboe). The sheer scale of the integral version on CD46 is enticing and the booklet is quite thorough in discussing the work.

The 3xRefrain 2000 works quite well also. The sense of scale is, like the integral version of Spiral, awesome (there is material there for a little over one hour of music, with unfolding variety throughout) and sonically it is an improvement over the other versions (although I kind of like the 'organic' feel of the earlier versions--i.e. Wambach's and Kontarsky's).

[petrarch]

(...) and my listening feels refreshed and more perceptive & sensitive! builds on pattern recognition skills, blows up the imagination .. and makes me ponder many, many musical things .. )

...except John Cage .

[petrarch]

I said musical things .. not meaningless things.   

Seriously tho .. I gave Cage 'a chance' and explored his output quite extensively a number of years ago.
I have like close to 30 John Cage albums in my library. And just last week I bought the Henning Lohner Mode DVD for $4.99.

 

You'll get there if you don't close your ears . For me it wasn't immediate, it actually took a few years (of expanding the imagination, broadening horizons, and suddenly it 'clicked'). Stockhausen, Boulez et al, were much 'easier' in that respect.