Author Topic: Stockhausen's Spaceship  (Read 365893 times)

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Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #900 on: August 09, 2014, 05:45:31 AM »
In fact, I find the contrapuntal side to Kontrapunkte quite hard to follow - quite hard to follow what one instrument is doing, how the instruments are relating and responding to each other. Maybe I need to give it more time, or find a new performance. Or maybe it's more about punkte that contrapunkte, and the idea of interacting simultaneous voices isn't primary.

Number Two!  I should probably change my blog article to make this clearer to non-Stockhausen scholars (having lived with the music for 20 years it's hard to remember what's "avant-garde" anymore :) ):

KONTRA-PUNKTE (Counter-Points) is not related to classical counterpoint technique (you know the Fux stuff) at all.  It's about how the "points" (single notes of different lengths, separated by silences) are being attacked by "groups" of notes (short fast melodies), until finally the piece ends with the piano becoming one long group of notes (last man standing, so to speak).   It starts with 10 instruments playing what seems like a starfield of notes, and coalesces into one big bright sun.

The best way to enjoy it is to listen on headphones and know where the instruments are, since they act as pairs.  Then you'll notice that one minute it will be ping-ponging and "pointillistic", then bursts of connected notes, then back to pointillistic, etc...   Two other major signposts (for me) are the trombone cadenza and the violin solo which ends in a big huff.  See the breakdown in my post to see all the other highlights!

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/08/opus-1-kontra-punkte.html

I think my current favorite recording is the Wergo CD by Ensemble Recherche.  They really play the hell out of it.

Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #901 on: August 09, 2014, 05:53:31 AM »
Tell me, apart from Stockhausen and Carter, which other composers have made counterpoint an major part of their thing?  Somehow I've always thought of Stockhausen's music primarily in terms of timbre. Actually one that interests me is Shapey, in the concertantes. But I'm not so sure you find contrapuntal thinking so prominently elsewhere in his work. And now that I think about it, I think contrapuntal ideas have been pretty central in some more recent Ferneyhough, like the 6th quartet. And maybe in Boulez too, and Birtwistle - I need to think about good examples there.

Is Hindemith still considered modern?  Counterpoint's his "thing" as I recall.

I find Ferneyhough kind of funny.  You know his pieces are written beyond the capability of human performance, so he only expects a performance to capture like 70 percent of what he wrote.  I'm probably wrong, since I've never analyzed a Ferneyhough score, but beyond that I'm not aware of any technique that he specializes in....



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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #902 on: August 09, 2014, 06:15:05 AM »
Is Hindemith still considered modern?  Counterpoint's his "thing" as I recall.

I find Ferneyhough kind of funny.  You know his pieces are written beyond the capability of human performance, so he only expects a performance to capture like 70 percent of what he wrote.  I'm probably wrong, since I've never analyzed a Ferneyhough score, but beyond that I'm not aware of any technique that he specializes in....



http://broadbandnoise.wordpress.com/tag/bill-evans/

Fugues were Hindemith's thing, for sure. Imitative counterpoint. In fact the sort of counterpoint which really excites me is what you hear in Himmelfahrt - two tunes at the same time, different rhythms, they shouldn't fit, but they do! You also hear it in Carter's Syringa (in fact everywhere in Carter pretty much) and in Bach --  BWV 6, the song Ach, bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ.

Actually as a listener rather than a performer I have no problem listening to, enjoying, Ferneyhough. He's my fave living composer I think. I'm sure he's murder to play but I think that's one reason why performances are often so exciting to hear - it's like the performers are undergoing a trial by fire to making the music happen, and sometimes that committment communicates. I'm listenening to Transit and to the Etudes Transcendentales a lot right now - can't get enough of it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 06:21:34 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #903 on: August 09, 2014, 06:20:50 AM »
I like Ferneyhough in smaller doses I think.  It's pretty spikey stuff that's for sure.  I kind of group him in with all the post-Stockhausen people, like Lachenmannn.

Just had a thought, the idea that his pieces are only partly playable could be a great marketing gimmick! 

"NEW!  85% more accurate than before!" 

"New version, with 10% less wrong notes!"

 :D

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #904 on: August 09, 2014, 06:22:54 AM »
Lachenmann's my limit - I can only just appeciate his stuff as music. I keep trying though.
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Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #905 on: August 09, 2014, 06:26:21 AM »
In fact the sort of counterpoint which really excites me is what you hear in Himmelfahrt - two tunes at the same time, different rhythms, they shouldn't fit, but they do! .

I call that "quodlibet", which is a word very dear to me since I use to run a small record label with that name.
So I agree with you about Ferneyhough being pretty counterpoint in the way you describe.  It is kind of becoming a bit of a lost art tho with all the spectralists and post minimalists these days.  And the totalists....   


Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #906 on: August 09, 2014, 06:29:40 AM »
Lachenmann's my limit - I can only just appeciate his stuff as music. I keep trying though.

Same here.  I totally respect what he's going for but I just don't put him on the Cd player much, like once a year maybe.  However he did do a Beethoven homage piece which I've never heard and am curious about.  I can't remember the name tho, which makes it much harder to search for!

Update: it's "Staub" (1987).
http://www.allmusic.com/performance/staub-for-orchestra-mq0001323289
Hard to tell from a 30 second sample but sounds intriguing...
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 06:34:27 AM by Uatu »

kishnevi

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #907 on: August 09, 2014, 09:29:07 AM »
Fugues were Hindemith's thing, for sure. Imitative counterpoint. In fact the sort of counterpoint which really excites me is what you hear in Himmelfahrt - two tunes at the same time, different rhythms, they shouldn't fit, but they do! You also hear it in Carter's Syringa (in fact everywhere in Carter pretty much) and in Bach --  BWV 6, the song Ach, bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ.


That was Mahler's kind of counterpoint.  There is a story of him on an evening walk with friends,  finding themselves caught in the middle of several bands playing nearby;  Mahler reveled in the result while everyone else was covering their ears in sonic dismay.

Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #908 on: August 09, 2014, 10:51:54 AM »
That was Mahler's kind of counterpoint.  There is a story of him on an evening walk with friends,  finding themselves caught in the middle of several bands playing nearby;  Mahler reveled in the result while everyone else was covering their ears in sonic dismay.

That sounds like Charles Ives' experience as well, hearing different marching bands from different sides of the street playing at the same time. 

I have to admit, collage type mish-mashes of that type get kind of old after awhile, especially after the novelty wears off.  There's a sound artist named Christian Marclay who does alot of collage, as well as Otomo Yoshihide sometimes, but after awhile it doesn't have as much shock value, at least for me.  Anyways, that's way beyond Mahler's polythematic tendencies so never mind, just extemporizing here...

Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #909 on: August 10, 2014, 06:09:53 PM »
Karlheinz Stockhausen - documentaire ARTE

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZcazHoTDKI8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ZcazHoTDKI8</a>


Published on Aug 7, 2014
portrait du compositeur de musique contemporaine
english translation captioning available
52 minutes 50 seconds


Can you get the English captioning working?  I only see French as an option.  Pity since this looks pretty interesting.

Offline EigenUser

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #910 on: August 11, 2014, 02:06:58 AM »
Can you get the English captioning working?  I only see French as an option.  Pity since this looks pretty interesting.
Yeah, where did you see the option for English captioning? I'd love to see this. Theoretically I should be able to understand most of it in French, but I haven't spoken the language in so long so I'm a bit out of practice.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #911 on: August 21, 2014, 11:17:06 AM »


Klang hour 2 - FREUDE is up on my blog.  Gorgeous piece for 2 harps.  Fairly easy to analyze.  I was originally going to do MICHAELs REISE or MOMENTE but those are
BIG.
But I'll probably dig in and do one or the other next....

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/08/opus-82-klang-hour-2-freude.html

Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #912 on: August 26, 2014, 05:21:51 AM »
Wow - Kontakte in 5.1 sound?  I wonder if the 4 channels will be separated correctly?  If so this an instant purchase.....where can I get this James?

Offline CRCulver

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #913 on: August 26, 2014, 10:44:59 AM »
Wow - Kontakte in 5.1 sound?  I wonder if the 4 channels will be separated correctly?  If so this an instant purchase.....where can I get this James?

A limitation of Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 surround sound is that the real channels are low-resolution. Because the technology was designed with films in mind (and with music after an afterthought), it uses rear channels to create a sense of space, but it cannot faithfully reproduce the sound of musicians (or sound projection) located both in front and behind the listener.

(At least that's how one Stockhausen scholar explained to me why the composer did not adopt DVD audio for Stockhausen-Verlag.)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 10:49:30 AM by CRCulver »

Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #914 on: August 26, 2014, 01:04:26 PM »
A limitation of Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 surround sound is that the real channels are low-resolution. Because the technology was designed with films in mind (and with music after an afterthought), it uses rear channels to create a sense of space, but it cannot faithfully reproduce the sound of musicians (or sound projection) located both in front and behind the listener.

(At least that's how one Stockhausen scholar explained to me why the composer did not adopt DVD audio for Stockhausen-Verlag.)

Really?  I find that really hard to believe nowadays with all the advances in technology.  I wonder if Stockhausen was relying on outdated technical specs.  I have some fan-made DVD audios of Pink Floyd and Jeff Beck which sound very much like musicians in the rears without any noticeable degradation.  In any case thanks for the info from the KS scholar, I always wondered about that. 

Offline CRCulver

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #915 on: August 28, 2014, 07:11:37 AM »
Really?  I find that really hard to believe nowadays with all the advances in technology.

The Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 standards used in DVDs haven't changed since the 1990s, even if the DVD was just recently made. There are newer standards for higher-quality surround like DTS HD Master Audio, but those are only part of the Blu-ray spec, not DVD, and Mode unfortunately doesn't produce Blu-rays.

Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #916 on: August 28, 2014, 11:06:28 AM »
The Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 standards used in DVDs haven't changed since the 1990s, even if the DVD was just recently made. There are newer standards for higher-quality surround like DTS HD Master Audio, but those are only part of the Blu-ray spec, not DVD, and Mode unfortunately doesn't produce Blu-rays.

Hmm...so it sounds like it's going to be not as good as I'd hoped....if anybody picks this dvd up I'd love to hear a review before pulling the trigger.  Maybe someday I'll order the 4-channel from SV and figure something out.  By then I'm sure we'll all be authoring Blurays hopefully...

Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #917 on: August 28, 2014, 11:11:04 AM »
Everything you ever wanted to know about Stockhausen's LICHT operas but were afraid to ask!

Actually no, it's really very brief and concise, but I needed to throw a little guide out there to prepare for part 2, which will analyze the melodic formulas woven through the 29 hour work. 

A Brief Guide to LICHT - Pt 1: Musical Forces :
http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-brief-guide-to-licht-pt-1-drama-and.html


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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #918 on: August 30, 2014, 02:53:00 PM »
Stockhausen: ear candy for James

Not that there's anything wrong with that . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Uatu

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Re: Stockhausen's Spaceship
« Reply #919 on: September 04, 2014, 06:08:16 AM »
See the Light.  This is where I get into the musical guts of the LICHT opera cycle.  If you get airsick easily this may not be for you.  Children under 48 inches are prohibited from this ride.  If you are pregnant or take heart medication please obtain a doctor's permission :).

A Brief Guide to LICHT - Pt 2: Super-Formula
http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-brief-guide-to-licht-pt-2-super.html

     I feel that the sounds and intervals of the super formula are actually the characters, and
that the people who realise the sounds represent them. So the true actors in the entire work of
LICHT are actually the pitches and durations, the intensities and the colours, and the tone-forms
of the super formula. It is difficult to explain to people that I, as a musician, see sounds like
people and experience them as such while composing.

 - Stockhausen, "FREITAG - World Theatre"