Topic: Stockhausen's Spaceship

[petrarch]

Stockhausen.org has posted a series of these articles and radio mp3s now (all in German) where you can hear tiny snippets of Paradies etc. within

Thanks, those were very helpful. It is as I feared; sonically, the electronic sounds are bland, although Paradies appears to be a little better than Urantia. I guess he couldn't get away from that kind of preset sound when writing for keyboard (i.e. note-based music) as opposed to for tape (i.e. object-based music)--just compare with e.g. the variety and freshness of the tape for Kontakte.

[petrarch]

say wha? note-based vs. object-based?

Note-based as in being fully notated like with a piano and restricted to what you can do with a keyboard: Press key x with velocity y and perhaps wiggle the pitch bend and the modulation wheel; all notes on the keyboard sound basically the same with a simple shift in frequency along the keyboard.

Object-based as in the Pierre Schaeffer sense. In other words, without the restrictions of note-based sound production: For example, splicing of tape to expand the timbral evolution and frequency or amplitude contours, which is not easily reproducible by pressing key x with velocity y (unless, of course you are using a sampler, but then that is sort of the same as using tape).

They are simply 2 entirely different works with different goals & characteristics ...
(a good thing)

Fair enough. Regardless, I find one vastly more interesting and engaging than the other.

I like Kontakte but quite frankly I don't agree with you that the clean electronic surface timbres that he uses are "bland" ... they work quite well with what he was doing & I like them a lot and the music itself has a lot of variety.

I agree that Paradies sounds interesting, and definitely better than Havona and Urantia even from that very small extract. However, the electronic sounds are not much more than a synthesizer with a dry bell-like sound, and a lot of glissandi and tremolandi. And this is what bothers me to no end; it seems that the flute writing might compensate for the lack of interest of the electronic sounds, but there's a whole lot out there having richer, more engaging electronic sounds. I absolutely don't see how could Stockhausen devolve into this use of electronics after so many wonderful, breathtaking masterpieces (Kontakte, Hymnen, etc). Stockhausen in the 2000s is using simple, common place pseudo-preset sounds that have been there since the DX7 hit the market in the early 80s. They are bland; they're lifeless. Compare for example with the collage and computer-generated sounds of Wolfgang Mitterer's Music for checking emails--here's a link to the first movement: http://www.col-legno.com/pics_db/hallo_mr_bruckner.mp3

[petrarch]

That link you posted isn't working for me.

Delete the trailing dot (I guess the URL algorithm of the GMG forum isn't smart enough). I've edited my post to remove it.

[petrarch]

Polished surface production but it doesnt really do much for me to be honest - sounds like movie music backdrop. Derivative.anonymous. Stockhausen is leagues beyond this creatively.

I knew you were going to say something like that , but creativity is beside the point. What is the point is the "freshness" and "variety" of the sounds, something that uses synthesized/computer-based/processed sound beyond preset #1 on the keyboard and is reminiscent of Telemusik or Hymnen.

But I am not surprised by your reaction, which in a way is similar to mine--I'm not engaged by the sounds used by Stockhausen, you are not engaged by Mitterer's discourse, and that affects the appreciation of the whole.

[petrarch]

Well quite frankly it doesnt sound musically or creatively all that "fresh" (you even point this out in a way i.e. reminiscent things done in the 60s).. I like to hear creativity first & foremost, it's paramount ... without it "freshness" & "variety" is impossible. I would never buy the Mitterer thing you posted, it just sounds like an assemblage of shit i've heard before; it's boring & uninteresting. Like movie music backdrop. It doesnt phase me. You can have the fanciest or most polished colorful surface sound production in the world but I never confuse this with real stuff.substance.

Again, it was about the sounds and not the piece. The aesthetic and taste discussion is for another time.

[petrarch]

Over the weekend I heard some of Klang's Paradies and it was pretty awesome ... what sorta irks me is that it's issued on a single disc, the piece is roughly 18 minutes long, and the rest of the disc is filled out with what? The electronic music itself? and? Couldn't they just group some of these shorter Klang pieces together on a single release for chrissakes. Poor planning imo.

I think that SV hasn't clearly decided what they want to do with the recordings and scores--they are torn between 1) documenting Stockhausen's work for posterity (it is well-known that Stockhausen was growing unhappy with the fragmented nature of published works by DG and the uncertainty surrounding their continued availability); 2) fulfilling the demand of people who merely want to enjoy the music; and 3) provide study and didactic material for professional and amateur musicians.

I think certain releases are more of #3 than #2, especially in some of the latest material (click tracks on a CD, why should I care? If I want to perform the work, I would rent the click track tape...). Since releases have caught up with composition and recording of new works, there is less flexibility in packaging and combining works in an optimal way, so I guess SV will face the challenge of waiting until there is meaningful material to package a full CD or of quickly recouping the expense of performing and recording the works.

[petrarch]

In the future, I'd love to see a complete Klang cycle boxed set ... even if it's not from SV. We'll probably be dead & gone before anything like that happens tho.

Yeah, the complete Klang would be very interesting, but I wonder how many discs it would be (with all the alternative instrument combinations) and how steep a price tag it would command if it came from SV (plus all the notes would make a huge booklet).

Just placed another order with SV... ~20 CDs coming my way, should be here in 4 weeks or so.

Also, Kathinka just told me CD 93 (Orvonton) and 95 (Nebadon) are at the factory, with more of Klang coming out soon. Nebadon is probably like Paradies, being for solo instrument and electronic music.

[petrarch]

As an FYI, the version of Punkte presented on that CD is also available on the Verlag (CD 81, in addition to the original recording on CD 2). I am not sure whether it commands the full price of an SV release just for that work, though the liner notes alone might be worth it. Also, for those who enjoy Gruppen immensely (like I do), there is a bonus feature in Simon Rattle's Leaving Home DVD series containing a full filmed performance of the work.

One thing I always found curious about Gruppen is how the tempi follow the equal temperament scale (i.e. with approximate irrational ratios) but the rhythms follow the just intonation scale (i.e. ratios of small integers). This inconsistency is an example of how arbitrary Stockhausen's compositional approach is, despite the image of absolute order and of purity of design.

[MDL]

Trans_(Stockhausen)]Trans[/url], which is OK, but I could easily live without. Mixtur 2003? Hymnen mit orchester? etc.?

http://www.stockhausen.org/works_for_orchestra.pdf

Gasp! Trans was the first work by Stockhausen that I got to know. Perhaps that's one reason why I love it so much. I think it's one of his most inventive pieces and unlike so much of his later music, doesn't drag on for ages. But each to their own.

[MDL]

most inventive, really? Compared to Gruppen & others.

And much of his later music doesn't drag on for ages, you have many options to digest & perform it in innumerable ways. i.e. Licht.

Well, Gruppen, Carre, Momente and Trans are my fave Stockhausen pieces, followed by Gesang, Punkte and Kontakte. I listened to Donnerstag when it was first broadcast on the radio back in the early 1980s and was spellbound for the entire duration. I've only heard Saturday and Friday since then, and neither has impressed me as much. I've heard good things about Monday and Tuesday. Which Licht opera would you recommend to me?

(I have to say I never, ever want to hear Musik im Bauch again.)

[MDL]

Thanks, James, for spending so much time writing such a detailed and informative run-through of the Licht operas. It's really helpful. I've already got the recordings of Thursday and Saturday. I remember seeing Monday in Harold Moores record shop in Soho many years ago, but it cost well over £100 and I chickened out of buying it, which I regret now because I'm sure I spend that much a month on booze.   

I'm going to go back and read your post again, and decide which opera I should tackle next. Tuesday sounds fun...

Regards!

[petrarch]

And while we're talking Klavierstücke, here's an oldie but goodie--a quick analysis of Klavierstück X by Florent Boffard:

http://fboffard.free.fr/stock.html

[petrarch]

CD 42 has more extensive coverage of Klavierstück XV/Synthi-Fou, but I wonder if Antonio Pérez Abellán's version is better or fresher than Simon Stockhausen's, which always seemed constrained and too high-brow to my ears.

I'll also eventually get Ellen Corver's recording of I-XIV. The only reason I haven't ordered it yet is that Kontarsky's is really the greatest reference for I-XI, with excellent sound quality and perfect rendition, and I am afraid I'll be disappointed with Corver's after getting so attuned to the Kontarsky (the Henck on Wergo was a major disappointment). And besides, there's a lot of other stuff in the SV catalog I want to get before I fork out the $$$ for CD 56 .

[karlhenning]

An [inordinate] amount of ridiculous, not-so-level headed, grandiose, philosophical rambling & mythology . . . I am grateful for this description of what I often find in this thread ; )

[karlhenning]

Watched a performance of Gruppen on DVD.  Piece is all right, but does not IMO rise to the level of the unctuous hype.

[petrarch]

Just placed another order with SV... ~20 CDs coming my way, should be here in 4 weeks or so.

Just received CDs 23, 25, 27, 28, 29, 32, 35, 43, 45, 58, 62, 68, 69, 73, 79, 80 and 86, filling most of the gaps I had on CDs up to 40. Now, if I weren't traveling for work so much... I might put some of these on my ipod to take them with me, but I will certainly miss reading the booklets.

Oh and in the meantime, I found mp3 files of Klang 5, 7, 9, 10, 14, 19 and 20, so, a lot of stuff to go through.

[karlhenning]

Lord bless you.

[petrarch]

If it weren't for tastes, yellow would be in clear disuse.

[karlhenning]

If it weren't for tastes, yellow would be in clear disuse.

That's the right spirit!  Good to know that there are Stockhausen enthusiasts who are not Taste Nazis ; )

[MDL]

Just received CDs 23, 25, 27, 28, 29, 32, 35, 43, 45, 58, 62, 68, 69, 73, 79, 80 and 86, filling most of the gaps I had on CDs up to 40. Now, if I weren't traveling for work so much... I might put some of these on my ipod to take them with me, but I will certainly miss reading the booklets.

Oh and in the meantime, I found mp3 files of Klang 5, 7, 9, 10, 14, 19 and 20, so, a lot of stuff to go through.

Respect! Have you won the lottery or something? You're going to have to retire to have the time to catch up on all that music. Or at least throw the mother of all sickies.