Suckers and Music?

[JoshLilly]

I once watched a television program on... "art", let's say. I think it was the show '60 Minutes'. It covered a giant "art" show put on for wealthy buyers, and featured such things as "Can of Artist's Excrement" (yes, exactly how it sounds) that sold for US$10,000. Several "paintings" where the "artist" would simply paint the whole canvas one solid colour sold for multiple thousands of dollars. One of the most stupefying was when a rich man bought a blank canvas; literally, the "artist" hadn't even painted it white or beige or anything, just bought a canvas and done literally nothing to it, and that sold for a few thousand bucks. Another "artist" would buy small bookcases and store mannequins, tear the legs off the mannequins, and stick the legs out of a shelf on the bookcase and fix them in place. Another would buy an aquarium, fill it up with blue jello, and wedge a basketball in it. There were other outlandish things selling for extremely high dollar amounts, just blowing my mind, because none of it was outside my capabilities, or even the capabilities of your average howler monkey, yet these "artists" were making small fortunes by basically conning rich idiots into buying this stuff. Maybe they were serving LSD-laced wine to the prospective buyers or something, I don't know. There was a lot more to it, some of it really absurd that I can't think of at the moment.

Anyway, my question up for people's opinions: is there a musical equivalent of this?

[Kullervo]

John Cage fans.

[uffeviking]

Corey, you forgot to add to your post: In my opinion! 

[Kullervo]

Corey, you forgot to add to your post: In my opinion! 

That's implied in all my posts.

[Montpellier]

Anyway, my question up for people's opinions: is there a musical equivalent of this?

Most contemporary "music".   Please see

http://www.prsfoundation.co.uk/newmusicaward/launch.htm

for which the composer(?), Finer, was awarded around $100,000 at the current exchange rate. 

[JoshLilly]

Score for a Hole in the Ground.......
I can't wait for a Sinfonia Concertante for Hole in Ground, Knot in Log, and Orchestra.

[matticus]

Anyway, my question up for people's opinions: is there a musical equivalent of this?

Not really; music is not commodified in the same way that art is. People generally do not pay more than say £15 for a recording, and most concerts cost around that or much less.

Most of the 'rich idiots' who bought the works you mention probably made a tidy return on their investments, by the way.

[matticus]

for which the composer(?), Finer, was awarded around $100,000 at the current exchange rate. 

Just to clarify, Finer was awarded up to £50,000 towards creating the installation -- I've no idea whether that covered the costs or far exceeded them or what. Finer himself didn't pocket any cash from the award as far as I know.

[Keemun]

John Cage fans.

I would also add: Terry Riley - "In C" 

[longears]

I would also add: Terry Riley - "In C" 

[Kullervo]

I would also add: Terry Riley - "In C" 

At least that's music!

[JoshLilly]

I'm not talking about music that you think sucks. I'm talking about where someone - possibly intentionally - did something non-musical and tried to pass it off as music. The "Hole in the Ground" thing certainly qualifies. Yes, I do consider a lot of what John Cage has done to also qualify (ie. 4'33").

[uffeviking]

That's implied in all my posts.

Corey: Touché!   

[Keemun]

I'm not talking about music that you think sucks. I'm talking about where someone - possibly intentionally - did something non-musical and tried to pass it off as music. The "Hole in the Ground" thing certainly qualifies. Yes, I do consider a lot of what John Cage has done to also qualify (ie. 4'33").

Ah, well with that explanation, I take back my nomination of Terry Riley - In C (it does, after all, involve musical instruments creating sound).   

[Josquin des Prez]

I'm talking about where someone - possibly intentionally - did something non-musical and tried to pass it off as music.

Yes, John Cage.

[Montpellier]

Just to clarify, Finer was awarded up to £50,000 towards creating the installation -- I've no idea whether that covered the costs or far exceeded them or what. Finer himself didn't pocket any cash from the award as far as I know.

And the bl**dy contraption doesn't work at the moment according to the site.  If he isn't in sufficient command of his musical materials to make his composition a go-er then he should pay it back!   If he's been sensible he'll have regarded the £50000 as a target - a precaution against being cut back when he submits for his next masterpiece.  What will that be, one wonders?   

[Grazioso]

Josh, what you describe is cultural decadence and decay in action, where people cease to take emotions and ideals and norms seriously, where they have nothing honest and heartfelt to say and begin to turn it all into a big joke. From that perspective, much of what was valuable and beautiful about Western artistic culture died with the fading of the Victorian era.

Most contemporary "music".   Please see

Except that a lot of contemporary music is written in styles that are clear developments or exemplars of existing musical norms that have been understood and valued for many years, e.g., Neo-Romanticism. With any luck, "avant-garde" things like Cage's 4'33" will be relegated to a tiny footnote in artistic history--or merely used as a predictable joke in GMG threads

[bwv 1080]

I'm not talking about music that you think sucks. I'm talking about where someone - possibly intentionally - did something non-musical and tried to pass it off as music. The "Hole in the Ground" thing certainly qualifies. Yes, I do consider a lot of what John Cage has done to also qualify (ie. 4'33").

But everything Cage did was musical.   

[uffeviking]

But everything Cage did was musical.   

Second that! 

If you don't agree, you have never listened to his The Seasons! 

[Novi]

Josh, what you describe is cultural decadence and decay in action, where people cease to take emotions and ideals and norms seriously, where they have nothing honest and heartfelt to say and begin to turn it all into a big joke. From that perspective, much of what was valuable and beautiful about Western artistic culture died with the fading of the Victorian era.

I don't think the rejection of ideals and norms necessarily means that what is being said is not honest nor heartfelt. Turning things into a big joke might for instance be a serious comment on the artist's view of archaic and stultifying norms. 

Maybe it is more an attempt to find a new kind of beauty and value beyond these norms .