Wagner One Ring to rule them all...

[(poco) Sforzando]

If you can get them for that price, I'm sure there are plenty of venues whose management would be interested in hearing from you.

Do you think maybe I can get just an anvil or two?

[karlhenning]

And maybe even a dwarf to smack against 'em!

[kishnevi]

$800 and you don't get an English translation. So it's not just the cheap sets that are lacking 

And is his comment "...a Japanese copy of John Culshaw's book; extremely useful" meant seriously or ironically?


I'm disappointed in the review. He didn't tell us why these remasters are better. No examples, no comparisons, just "I bought mine because the rich sound of the Viennese, surely the world's most amazing opera orchestra, can be heard at home as never before" ....whatever that means.


Sarge

He mentions problems with the original LP and CD reissues that apparently are not present in the Esoteric version.  Plus,  apparently, one should listen to it on the same type of loudspeakers that were used to monitor the recording sessions.  Or something like that. 

And this

The Notes and Track List - also in German and Japanese however, you can save the European Decca CD set booklet before you discard the CDs.

So not only do I need to be fluent in Japanese and German,  and have the same pair of loudspeakers John Culshaw used,  I should already own the actual Decca issue.

Sarge, I think for the expenses involved in all that, I could fly from Miami to Germany, pick up you wife and you on the way, and take in the complete cycle at Bayreuth.

[Elgarian]

Just been having a discussion with Mike involving the Goodall/ENO Ring, and thought it might be worth putting something here about it.

Although the bulk of my Ring listening was done via the Bohm cycle in the 70s and 80s (as described above), we had a small windfall at some point. Although by then our 'Wagner phase' seemed to have played itself out, we treated ourselves to a Goodall Ring, hoping it would remind us of seeing Rita and Alberto do it live, and maybe restart the Wagner enthusiasm.

But it didn't work out like that. The sound of the discs seemed unsatisfactory - the stereo image seemed vague and the sound woolly - and we put it down to the fact that the LPs were quadrophonic, and perhaps imperfectly compatible with our stereo system. And Goodall seemed slow and ponderous by comparison with Bohm - so the Wagner resurgence never happened, and in fact our 'windfall' Goodall set was dispatched at the end of the LP age along with everything else, having been played through only once.

What's the Goodall set like on CD? Is it still vague, as I remember it? It would be nice to listen to Rita and Alberto again, but I don't want to be bitten twice in the same place, 20 years on ....

[ccar]

It is not easy to capture the "moment" of a musical performance into a recording. And naturally this is even more difficult in Opera, where the visual can be as important as the music itself. Most of us long for the frisson of a live performance, for the natural sound and ambiance and for the direct contact with the stage, the musicians and the singers.

So why do we still look for and listen to the old sound only recordings of one of the most epic and theatrical adventures – Wagner's Ring. Some may look more into the power of some past vocal performances. Others are more impressed by the intensity and sophistication of the recorded orchestral sound.
             
Personally, when I look to these recorded performances, what impresses me most is the way they can build a powerful and dramatic "image", where we may dream we are actually there, feeling the intensity of the stage, the power of the music and the intelligence and acting qualities of the singers.  And sometimes, if the performance has real magic, and you are familiar enough with the work, the fact that you don't have the image may be like a great novel that feeds your own imagination.   

Perhaps this is why the luxurious Solti or Karajan recordings never helped my craving for that emotional intensity of a live performance. I really can't put any list of "best" recordings but perhaps there are those whose preserved magic I most remember –Furtwangler La Scala 1950, Krauss Bayreuth 1953, Keilberth Bayreuth 1955 (particularly the "second cycle", with Martha Modl's Brunnhilde) and Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1958.

And for a totally different reason I also can't forget the extraordinary "visual" impression of the Chéreau's Ring. The truthiness of the acting is so intense I almost found myself on the stage, inside the drama, seeing the action and not really listening to the music or the singing.   


   


   

[Elgarian]

And sometimes, if the performance has real magic, and you are familiar enough with the work, the fact that you don't have the image may be like a great novel that feeds your own imagination.   

Perhaps this is why the luxurious Solti or Karajan recordings never helped my craving for that emotional intensity of a live performance.

Reading that first sentence, I find myself nodding - very much my own feelings about the matter - but I don't think I understand your next sentence. Are you saying that the Solti doesn't have this magic, for you? Or do you mean only that it doesn't have the feel of 'live opera'?

And for a totally different reason I also can't forget the extraordinary "visual" impression of the Chéreau's Ring. The truthiness of the acting is so intense I almost found myself on the stage, inside the drama, seeing the action and not really listening to the music or the singing.

You're referring here to the purely audio recording, yes? Is this because you've seen the DVD and can transfer the images in imagination when you listen to the audio only?

[Elgarian]

Not really relevant to this thread because not related to a recording, but still part of the ongoing story, for me: I recently came across a programme for a concert performance of Rheingold under Solti's baton when he was with the London Phil, in 1980. To my delight, it was signed not only by him (see below), but, on the other pages, by all the members of the cast too.

[Sergeant Rock]

It is not easy to capture the "moment" of a musical performance into a recording. And naturally this is even more difficult in Opera, where the visual can be as important as the music itself. Most of us long for the frisson of a live performance, for the natural sound and ambiance and for the direct contact with the stage, the musicians and the singers.

Perhaps "most of us" long for that but I don't. I find live recordings a necessary evil: a way to hear conductors, singers and performances I wouldn't otherwise hear but subject to all the problems inherent in live recording: balance between singers and orchestra, extraneous stage noise (those horrid THUMPS), the chorus scambling around the stage, prompters, audience noise, singers and musicians tiring near the end. Sure, a live recording can make me feel like I'm in the theater--but it also makes me wish I weren't   There are too many distractions that get in the way of the music.

As far as live "frisson" goes: nobody sings the first act of Walküre as intensely as Vickers for Karajan. No one thrills me like Vickers, Janowitz and Karajan's Berliners in the third scene. You don't need a live performance to accomplish that kind of intensity. You just need great performers. I can more easily slip into Wagner's world with a studio recording.

So why do we still look for and listen to the old sound only recordings of one of the most epic and theatrical adventures – Wagner's Ring. Some may look more into the power of some past vocal performances. Others are more impressed by the intensity and sophistication of the recorded orchestral sound.
             
Personally, when I look to these recorded performances, what impresses me most is the way they can build a powerful and dramatic "image", where we may dream we are actually there, feeling the intensity of the stage, the power of the music and the intelligence and acting qualities of the singers.  And sometimes, if the performance has real magic, and you are familiar enough with the work, the fact that you don't have the image may be like a great novel that feeds your own imagination.

I own some of those 50s recordings too: Fürtwängler Rome, Krauss '53, Knappertsbusch '56. But I don't feel they "build a dramatic image" any better than live recordings from the 60s and beyond (Böhm, Barenboim, Thielemann). In my mind they do a worse job because the sound quality is inferior which puts a kind of veil between me and the performers. Even the vaunted '55 Keilberth is noticeably inferior in quality of sound to Böhm.

Perhaps this is why the luxurious Solti or Karajan recordings never helped my craving for that emotional intensity of a live performance.

If that's what you want; if, for whatever reason, you only hear emotion in a live performance but can't hear it in Karajan and Solti's Rings, then of course their studio recordings won't satisfy you. Me, I'm more interested in simply hearing the music (and the emotion is hardly short-changed in their performances anyway--at least I have no trouble hearing it). In any case, the recording industry has taken care of both of our needs spendidly 

Sarge

[Scarpia]

Perhaps this is why the luxurious Solti or Karajan recordings never helped my craving for that emotional intensity of a live performance. I really can't put any list of "best" recordings but perhaps there are those whose preserved magic I most remember –Furtwangler La Scala 1950, Krauss Bayreuth 1953, Keilberth Bayreuth 1955 (particularly the "second cycle", with Martha Modl's Brunnhilde) and Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1958.

You should consider this:



It is a lip-synched film, but the audio track is a live recording at Karajan's Easter Festival.  Gorgeous, clearly better than the studio recording.

[Elgarian]

Progressing well, now, through my Ring box, and am nearing the end of Walkure. Act 1 seemed superb, to me, but then it's packed with such emotion and such soaring tunes that I knew I'd be overwhelmed by it. I did nod off a bit in Act 2 - I know this is just my ignorance, but I do tend to lose concentration during those long slow soliloquies by Wotan, telling us in painstaking detail all those things we already know. Yes I know - if I were really musically alert and intelligent, I'd marvel at the way it's all put together, but most of that goes over my head, if I'm honest. Bohm's version had much the same effect, so how Solti is faring by comparison I hardly know.

But Act 3 - oh blimey, that is The Best Ride of the Valkyries I've ever heard - and by golly they act their socks off, those gals. The changes in tone, the switches of emotion as they're confronted with what Brunnhilde has done - this all seems excellent to me. I found myself completely swept away into the drama and the music. I've had to leave the closing Wotan/Brunnhilde section for another day.

My only quibble in all this is that sometimes the special acoustic effects aren't completely convincing, despite the fact that I want them to be. I find myself conscious of the 'special effect' aspect of the sound character. But it really is the slightest of quibbles, and I'm not finding this in any sense an anticlimax after the exhilaration of Rheingold.

[DavidRoss]

I do tend to lose concentration during those long slow soliloquies by Wotan, telling us in painstaking detail all those things we already know. Yes I know - if I were really musically alert and intelligent, I'd marvel at the way it's all put together, but most of that goes over my head, if I'm honest. Bohm's version had much the same effect, so how Solti is faring by comparison I hardly know.

It's not so much the way it's put together that I marvel over, but that everyone doesn't acknowledge the plain fact that it's not bad for a rough draft, but needs considerable trimming and honing before it could be considered a successful finished work.   Act I itself is a sleep aid more effective than the one Sieglinde cooks up for Hunding, and Act II...well, you know....

[Scarpia]

Act 2 - I know this is just my ignorance, but I do tend to lose concentration during those long slow soliloquies by Wotan, telling us in painstaking detail all those things we already know. Yes I know - if I were really musically alert and intelligent, I'd marvel at the way it's all put together, but most of that goes over my head, if I'm honest. Bohm's version had much the same effect, so how Solti is faring by comparison I hardly know.

When I make this complaint, usually they explain to me that I'm a obviously cretin, since I don't understand that we have to hear Wotan tell us in painstaking detail what we've just seen in order to get Wotan's perspective on these events.   

I tend to think of Wotan as a on-eyed Uncle Leo.

[karlhenning]

One of these days, when I don't have a piece of my own that I am keen to write, I should check out the scores from the BPL, and do up the Ring avec partitures.

[DavidRoss]

One of these days, when I don't have a piece of my own that I am keen to write, I should check out the scores from the BPL, and do up the Ring avec partitures.

Make sure you have a blue pencil with, too.

[Elgarian]

It's not so much the way it's put together that I marvel over, but that everyone doesn't acknowledge the plain fact that it's not bad for a rough draft, but needs considerable trimming and honing before it could be considered a successful finished work.

Tempting though it is to agree, Dave, what worries me about making such a statement myself is the knowledge that I'm a poor listener, with a poor musical memory, and have an imaginative grasp far inferior to Wagner's - so I feel the odds are that most of the problems are at my end rather than his.
Rough draft? Surely not - after all that development time?
Over-ambitious? Possibly - but how can I know, from down here?
Excessively demanding on the listener? Certainly. But so is almost all the great art that I've carried with me through a lifetime.

Act I itself is a sleep aid more effective than the one Sieglinde cooks up for Hunding, and Act II...well, you know....

Not sure if that was a typo - do you really mean Act 1? Of Walkure? Siegmund and Sieglinde? Gosh - for me, that's one of the great high points of the Ring. I'd feel short-changed if so much as a note was removed from that. Drama, passion, danger, the most astounding lyrical intensity, orchestration that has me hanging expectantly on what's coming next  - my goodness, I couldn't sleep through any of that, no, no.

[Elgarian]

When I make this complaint, usually they explain to me that I'm a obviously cretin, since I don't understand that we have to hear Wotan tell us in painstaking detail what we've just seen in order to get Wotan's perspective on these events.   

Neither of us is a cretin, but I'm content to accept that I may not be a good enough listener to fully grasp the musico-dramatic intricacies of what's going on in Act 2. I could readily believe that if I had a firmer memory of the leitmotives and greater sensitivity to the subtle ways he manipulated them, I'd be able to perceive so much going on that I'd be gripped by these apparently snooze-making proceedings. (I can't help but remember that thirty years ago I used to think Elgar's violin concerto was too long and too boring, but now, having come to know what I know through patience and persistence, I see the problems were all on my side. I have a lot of evidence of that sort to give me pause.)

[DarkAngel]

Elgarian
have you looked into getting a used copy of this 2 CD companion to Solti Ring............

Many people think very highly of it for giving deeper understanding of the music, said to be easy for anyone to follow and clearly explained, perhaps someone who owns it can comment

Neither of us is a cretin, but I'm content to accept that I may not be a good enough listener to fully grasp the musico-dramatic intricacies of what's going on in Act 2. I could readily believe that if I had a firmer memory of the leitmotives and greater sensitivity to the subtle ways he manipulated them, I'd be able to perceive so much going on that I'd be gripped by these apparently snooze-making proceedings. (I can't help but remember that thirty years ago I used to think Elgar's violin concerto was too long and too boring, but now, having come to know what I know through patience and persistence, I see the problems were all on my side. I have a lot of evidence of that sort to give me pause.)

[DavidRoss]

Tempting though it is to agree, Dave, what worries me about making such a statement myself is the knowledge that I'm a poor listener, with a poor musical memory, and have an imaginative grasp far inferior to Wagner's - so I feel the odds are that most of the problems are at my end rather than his.
Rough draft? Surely not - after all that development time?
Over-ambitious? Possibly - but how can I know, from down here?
Excessively demanding on the listener? Certainly. But so is almost all the great art that I've carried with me through a lifetime.

That's very generous of you, Alan, but your flagging attention--and mine, and that of countless others over the past century-plus--is due not to deficiencies in the audience, but to deficiencies in the work itself.  It's a great idea to have music that "comments" on the dramatic action of a play--that's what opera was about long before little Dickie was born.  But no amount of cleverness in weaving leitmotifs through the music can compensate for dramatic flatness and turgidity.  Artfully arranged parsley won't make a rump roast into filet mignon.

Over-ambitious?  I think so.  Good idea, sloppy execution, and due, I think, to the narcissistic grandiosity of the creator, self-evident in the work and much to its detriment.

Not sure if that was a typo - do you really mean Act 1? Of Walkure? Siegmund and Sieglinde? Gosh - for me, that's one of the great high points of the Ring. I'd feel short-changed if so much as a note was removed from that. Drama, passion, danger, the most astounding lyrical intensity, orchestration that has me hanging expectantly on what's coming next  - my goodness, I couldn't sleep through any of that, no, no.

Yep, I meant Act I -- and I agree that it's one of the high points of the Ring...along with Act I of Siegfried, which likewise suffers from what we might charitably call too much of a good thing.  I suspect that what happens for true devotees is a quasi-religious trance state in which the passage of time seems suspended.  For the rest of us the dramatic flatness is an obstacle that undermines the success of a work that includes many great moments but, alas, many "dull quarter-hours."  And without the visual spectacle and frisson of a live performance to help hold our attention, some of us find recordings a challenge--but the dramatic emphasis of Solti's Ring helps quite a bit.

[karlhenning]

. . . Artfully arranged parsley won't make a rump roast into filet mignon.

Recalls a Zappa-ism: garni du jour.

[Elgarian]

That's very generous of you, Alan, but your flagging attention--and mine, and that of countless others over the past century-plus--is due not to deficiencies in the audience, but to deficiencies in the work itself.

No, honestly, it's nothing to do with being generous (though I'd gladly be generous to Wagner, if that's what it takes) - it's more to do with realism, or rather, knowledge of how so often in the past I've been caught out in this way. The pattern is so familiar:

1. I approach generally acclaimed 'Great Work'.
2. I appreciate some bits, but not others. Dismiss them as 'bad' (or overambitious, or badly edited, or whatever).
3. Years go by.
4. One day, I discover things have changed. Lots of the bad stuff now seems much better, and so:
5. What seemed like a patchwork of good bits and bad bits now seems like a tapestry far more intricate, far more demanding, and far more satisfying than I'd thought earlier.

I'm not saying this pattern fits all - but I've experienced it so often that I've become deeply suspicious of my 'dismissive' episodes. That's doesn't mean I believe it's all wonderful; just that my personal dismissals are so unreliable as to be counterproductive.

I suspect that what happens for true devotees is a quasi-religious trance state in which the passage of time seems suspended.

Well yes, but that's as good a description of a genuine engagement with great art as I'm likely to encounter - or at least, one way of describing it - and for me it's one of the most treasured experiences one can have, when all else is stilled, and the whole of one's being is engaged here and now with this 'other'. I wouldn't myself choose the word 'quasi-religious', perhaps (though I can see why one might); but a deep engagement with a work of art does involve a sense of heightened perception and sometimes a change in the perception of time - don't you think?  I don't think that's just for the 'true devotee' though - it can strike out of the blue, when the perceptive barriers come down, and one sees clearly (in Blake's sense).

I think there's another possible aspect of this, too - those passages of what we think of as 'dramatic flatness' (let's suppose that they really are a bit lacking) remind me of a description Ruskin once gave when analysing the composition of a Turner painting: "He paints for a minute or two with intense decision, then suddenly becomes, as the spectator thinks, slovenly; but he is not slovenly; you could not have taken any more decision from him just then; you have had as much as is good for you." That kind of idea (even if we squirm a bit at Ruskin's 'teacherly' tone) is pretty helpful when looking intently at paintings, and I suppose is used intuitively in music all the time. The difficulty arises specifically in Wagner, because we automatically want the dull bits to be short, and he seems to want them to be a quarter of an hour, as you put it.

But laying all this dubious theorising aside - I've now listened through the whole of Solti's Walkure, and sure, I struggled a bit to stay with it in Act 2. But I don't care. The rest of it (including the whole of the debateable ground of Act 1) was so wonderfully rewarding that I've had my 50 quid's worth out of this set already, and I still have Siegfried and Gotterdammerung to go. The single most stunning aspect of this is that I really thought my Wagner enthusiasm had peaked 25 or 30 years ago and was behind me. It's tremendous discovering that it isn't, and this time round I'm finding it bigger, and better, than ever. I think Solti and Culshaw have a lot to do with this - I'm noticing things in this recording all the time that seem more effectively articulated than I've ever heard them before.