Wagner One Ring to rule them all...

Started by canninator, September 24, 2007, 03:37:41 AM

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Belcher

Quote from: Hector on September 24, 2007, 06:16:38 AM
Testament.

The recording quality, in comparison with today, is irrelevant in the face of such incandescent performances, and I'm no Wagnerite!

However, at a tenner a disc it might be best to 'suck it and see' first.
http://www.loveandbuyit.net/

It worked for me. Thanks for the help

BitPerfectRichard

Quote from: DarkAngel on February 09, 2010, 02:55:16 PM
Solti Ring
the ultimate remaster now available from Decca Esoteric for a mere $800............hurry only 1,000 available  ;)

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Feb10/Wagner_Ring_ESSD90021-34.htm

More info:
http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/essd90021_34/indexe.html

I have it :)  It is a *stunning* remaster and the performance (if that is the correct word for a studio recording of an opera) is rightly legendary.  BTW, the limited edition of 1,000 boxed sets sold out in about 3 months.

I also have the Levine cycle on CD, and the Chéreau/Boulez on DVD.  They both have their strengths and I won't knock them.  I have Karajan's Rheingold and Gergiev's Walküre as individual operas.  Karajan's in particular seems to me to be very well cast (or maybe just well conducted, if you prefer).  Gergiev conjures an absorbing soundscape which holds my rapt attention for reasons I cannot convincingly explain.
"I did play all the right notes ... just not in the right order!"  -  Eric Morecambe

knight66

That all made for an interesting read. Of course, high-end Hi-Fi is essential or there would be little improvement over what we customarily hear. I have the set, but tend more to jump about other conductor's rings, including some historic ones.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

BitPerfectRichard

Quote from: knight66 on January 08, 2016, 09:49:38 PM
.... Of course, high-end Hi-Fi is essential or there would be little improvement over what we customarily hear....

That's an interesting debate, although this is not a good place for it.  I am in the high-end audio business, so I do have skin in that game.  In any case, I don't envisage anyone who is not a serious audiophile laying out the big moolah needed to acquire this particular set  ???!

Quote from: knight66 on January 08, 2016, 09:49:38 PM
.... I ... tend more to jump about other conductor's rings....

The thought does strike me ... to do otherwise would seem to require a 16-hour listening session :)!
"I did play all the right notes ... just not in the right order!"  -  Eric Morecambe

(poco) Sforzando

Ring-lovers in the vicinity of New York will want to see this new exhibit at the JP Morgan Library:

http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/wagners-ring
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

amw

#905
I listened to the complete cycle (all operas first listens) over several days as "background music"—I've found I can't stand Wagner when I try to listen as primary activity, but the background thing actually worked fairly well and helped me absorb the music better. *shrugs*

Random, disorganised thoughts—I have to leave in about 10 minutes:
- There is a lot of filler. I feel like a professional librettist would have cut Wagner's text in half, but of course he couldn't let any two-bit poet do that to ~his baby~. The music for this filler is ok, but rarely great; I can see why people like to cut bits and pieces out of these operas
- At the same time there is definitely great music. The opening prelude to No. 1 sets the quality expectations immediately by being excellent, and there's more on its level than I expected.
- The plot doesn't make much sense. Ok, it's an opera, and I guess you have to see it live. I still have no idea what the ring actually does, for instance. Or why the Gods fall at the end when they don't even do anything in the last opera, or, etc, etc.
- The whole "leitmotif" thing is pretty much successful I think—whenever one of them showed up I could usually remember where I'd heard it last if not where it had originated.
- At the same time... I dunno. I found that a few of them started to really grate with repetition. (Maybe that happens to everyone.) In particular, this one:

It was a cool theme the first 70 times or so, but at some point in the middle of Siegfried I was like "ok, we get it." Maybe it's that it always seems to appear unchanged apart from pitch level—it never really develops. (Sometimes the last three notes are a third lower, but thats not a development, just an alternate version)
- I have been partially spoiled by references to Wagner's music in other works. Looking through the scores I could easily see "oh, that's this thing from there" and move on. But in listening, every time what I think is the "fate motive" appears

I expected the timpani strokes to follow. They finally showed up in the Siegfried's Funeral March section, and then I expected the last movement of Shostakovich 15, which obviously didn't happen. Also, ever since listening to Souvenir de Bayreuth I am incapable of taking the Rhinemaidens theme or the Siegmund/Sieglinde love duet thing/carousel music from Walküre seriously.
- The end is very effective musically and I have no complaints. Dramatically, I wonder, again because I haven't seen it. Like ok Brünnhilde dies, Rhinemaidens get their gold back, Hagen dies... all the gods die, offstage? Alberich just... does his thing? He doesn't die or indeed get any kind of comeuppance at all? The Gibichungs keep being boring, but they are like, our concluding perspective or something, because we are now in the ~age of humanity~ and stuff. Idk. I wonder why the last opera was named Götterdämmerung at all instead of Siegfrieds Tod as it was originally, considering that the death of the gods occupies 2 minutes of a 4-hour opera and is sort of anticlimactic.
- Did I mention that the Gibichungs are boring? Other people who are boring: Siegmund, and any Wotan/Nibelungs interactions, for less justifiable reasons. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention, but the more interesting things would draw my attention automatically away from whatever I was doing.
- I know Wagner intended for his singers to use vibrato. But I don't think he intended for it to be wide enough to fit Fafner inside, and I think he wanted singers to sing the notes he requested, not the ones a quarter-tone above or below.
- Problems with singers tend to affect almost every recording I've noticed. I guess the orchestra is just too loud and they can't cut through without straining. It's not HIP, but why not use amplification?

Anyway, I liked it and I might listen again in an amount of time. It'll never be a favourite piece, but I liked it much more than Tristan. I'll take a break from opera for a bit before I decide what to listen to next

Jaakko Keskinen

#906
Quote from: amw on March 29, 2016, 01:18:38 PM
Alberich just... does his thing? He doesn't die or indeed get any kind of comeuppance at all?

One could argue that having lost both pleasures of love and the ring is a punishment in itself.

I used to find Siegmund boring as well but lately I've listened more and more to his monologue "Ein Schwert verhiess mir der Vater" in Act 1 and by the words "Selbst der alten Esche Stamm erglänzte in goldner Glut" I had shivers down my spine. James King really delivers it in Solti recording.
"Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him. Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand."

- Victor Hugo

André

It is indeed a very good Ring and a safe recommendation. Tastes may vary if one harbours preferences for this or that singer/conductor, but you won't go wrong with Böhm, especially if you value a combination of dramatic qualities and the atmosphere of live performances.

André

I think there's quite a few Rings out there that have a high level of musical quality. None is perfect - how could they be? I like the Solti, Janowski, Karajan Rings. I don't care much for the tepid Levine or the uneven Boulez. Depending on your tolerance for non stereo sound, the various Bayreuth 1950s Rings can be an excellent choice. The 1953 Keilberth is in very decent sound and his cast is unbeatable. It's also extremely cheap (price) and minimalist (presentation). I haven't heard his 1955 remake in stereo, but I doubt it would improve musically on the 1953 version. Also, it is much, much more expensive. The two Furtwängler Rings from Italy are uneven (some uninteresting singers) and technically unsatisfactory. Maybe I had a second rate transfer (from the 107 disc Furtwängler box) but I doubt they could morph into good quality recordings.

The Neuhold is very surprising. It's a bargain basement deal with some excellent no-name singers. Provincial opera houses in Germany boast excellent second tier casts and orchestras. In a work like the Ring, where tight ensemble is a pre-requisite, this one checks many boxes. The Ring contains acres of soliloquies and duets (dual monologues really) and meaningful verbal exchanges are more important to the ebb and flow than anything else. That ensemble feeling is very much an asset here. Recorded in excellent digital sound it greatly benefits from the conductor's intelligent pacing and placing of the emotional climaxes (the crux of the matter IMO).

I also like the English Ring by Goodall. It has the best Siegfried of the whole lot and great singers in the most important roles (Wotan, Brünnhilde) as well as being spectacularly recorded. Goodall's spacious pacing divides opinions, but I appreciate the feeling of grandeur, even infinity he generates.

Mirror Image

Quote from: André on December 29, 2019, 07:31:52 AM
I think there's quite a few Rings out there that have a high level of musical quality. None is perfect - how could they be? I like the Solti, Janowski, Karajan Rings. I don't care much for the tepid Levine or the uneven Boulez. Depending on your tolerance for non stereo sound, the various Bayreuth 1950s Rings can be an excellent choice. The 1953 Keilberth is in very decent sound and his cast is unbeatable. It's also extremely cheap (price) and minimalist (presentation). I haven't heard his 1955 remake in stereo, but I doubt it would improve musically on the 1953 version. Also, it is much, much more expensive. The two Furtwängler Rings from Italy are uneven (some uninteresting singers) and technically unsatisfactory. Maybe I had a second rate transfer (from the 107 disc Furtwängler box) but I doubt they could morph into good quality recordings.

The Neuhold is very surprising. It's a bargain basement deal with some excellent no-name singers. Provincial opera houses in Germany boast excellent second tier casts and orchestras. In a work like the Ring, where tight ensemble is a pre-requisite, this one checks many boxes. The Ring contains acres of soliloquies and duets (dual monologues really) and meaningful verbal exchanges are more important to the ebb and flow than anything else. That ensemble feeling is very much an asset here. Recorded in excellent digital sound it greatly benefits from the conductor's intelligent pacing and placing of the emotional climaxes (the crux of the matter IMO).

I also like the English Ring by Goodall. It has the best Siegfried of the whole lot and great singers in the most important roles (Wotan, Brünnhilde) as well as being spectacularly recorded. Goodall's spacious pacing divides opinions, but I appreciate the feeling of grandeur, even infinity he generates.

Which Janowski Ring are you referring to, Andre?

Roasted Swan

Quote from: André on December 29, 2019, 07:31:52 AM

The Neuhold is very surprising. It's a bargain basement deal with some excellent no-name singers. Provincial opera houses in Germany boast excellent second tier casts and orchestras. In a work like the Ring, where tight ensemble is a pre-requisite, this one checks many boxes. The Ring contains acres of soliloquies and duets (dual monologues really) and meaningful verbal exchanges are more important to the ebb and flow than anything else. That ensemble feeling is very much an asset here. Recorded in excellent digital sound it greatly benefits from the conductor's intelligent pacing and placing of the emotional climaxes (the crux of the matter IMO).


I worked with Gunter Neuhold in the mid 1980's when he was principal conductor of the Teatro Regio in Parma.  He was an exceptionally good conductor both in the opera pit and the concert hall.  Well prepared, intelligent, clear (players do love a good clear conductor!) and collaborative.  It was no surprise when this set appeared to general acclaim.  The reality is there are many fine performers/conductors out there who are often at the least the equal if not significantly better than nominally star names.

Mirror Image

Here's a question:

I already own this Solti Ring box set:



Is there any need to buy this reissue for the remastered sonics?



I'm an 'occasional' Wagnerian, but I do think highly of his music. Other Ring cycles I own: HvK and Janowski (on Sony).

Biffo

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 15, 2020, 07:04:37 AM
Here's a question:

I already own this Solti Ring box set:



Is there any need to buy this reissue for the remastered sonics?



I'm an 'occasional' Wagnerian, but I do think highly of his music. Other Ring cycles I own: HvK and Janowski (on Sony).

I suppose it depends on the quality of your hi-fi, listening environment and ears. I personally wouldn't bother, especially as you are only an occasional Wagnerian.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Biffo on February 15, 2020, 08:25:32 AM
I suppose it depends on the quality of your hi-fi, listening environment and ears. I personally wouldn't bother, especially as you are only an occasional Wagnerian.

Yeah, you're probably right. :)

vers la flamme

^I've actually been told to avoid the newest remaster in favor of the one you have. I think you're in good shape with what you've got. I'm considering getting a copy myself. I think Solti will ultimately be my choice, though Karajan is still a contender.

Mirror Image

#915
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 16, 2020, 10:22:31 AM
^I've actually been told to avoid the newest remaster in favor of the one you have. I think you're in good shape with what you've got. I'm considering getting a copy myself. I think Solti will ultimately be my choice, though Karajan is still a contender.

Yeah and I also prefer the look of the old set, too. The presentation is also leaps and bounds better than this new reissue. Have you seen the packaging for the one I own?

Jo498

I mentioned the 1997 issue in my "special sets" post a few days ago. I recall that before I bought it in the late 1990s a person who recommended it to me described the presentation and design as "Gesamtkunstwerk" ;) And this is true, so it is preferable.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

AlberichUndHagen

Definitely go with the 1997 version, John. It has better cover art as well!  :D

Mirror Image

Quote from: AlberichUndHagen on February 17, 2020, 08:38:08 AM
Definitely go with the 1997 version, John. It has better cover art as well!  :D

Well, I already own the '97 iteration of Solti's Ring (as pictured above), I was just really wondering if the updated sonics in the new iteration were 'worth it' or not? But, I'll take your endorsement as I made a good decision in deciding not to buy the newer edition and just sticking with the '97 set.

Mirror Image

Here's a question for everyone: I'm in the midst of ripping much of classical collection to my computer (and backing it up as well) and I want to rip one set of the Ring, but which one? Here are the ones I own: Böhm, Karajan, Solti, Barenboim and Janowski (on Sony).