Wagner One Ring to rule them all...

Started by canninator, September 24, 2007, 03:37:41 AM

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Elgarian

Quote from: DavidRoss on August 19, 2010, 12:39:49 PM
Hmmm...perhaps if you were more keen on watching Mozart and less on watching Wagner, she might come around...?  ;)
Dave, you have no idea. When I want Wagner, she wants Mozart. When she wants Wagner, I want Mozart. We end up meeting somewhere like Star Trek.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: DavidRoss on August 19, 2010, 12:39:49 PM
Hmmm...perhaps if you were more keen on watching Mozart and less on watching Wagner, she might come around...?  ;)

More blasphemy from the Unbeliever. Be careful, David....remember, nobody expects the inquisition.  $:)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Elgarian



Interesting, this. In so many obvious ways this Met production is superior to the Karajan version that I wrote about earlier, and yet, and yet - there's a kind woodenness about it. Siegfried Jerusalem's Loge doesn't quite seem to catch fire, unlike his counterpart in Karajan's production, who does. Morris's Wotan seems as if he doesn't quite know what to do with his spear most of the time, so resorts to a set of formulaic stances involving it. And maybe that's how gods behave, but it makes them seem a bit dull. I'll be interested to have Scarpia's thoughts on this. I fancy that while we're both aware of the limitations of the Karajan (most notably the special effects), it actually has more life in it.

I wondered if maybe I was getting jaded, but when I put Siegfried on I was immediately captivated, so I think there really may be something not-quite-so-convincing about this Rheingold.

Scarpia

Quote from: Elgarian on August 19, 2010, 12:56:16 PM
Dave, you have no idea. When I want Wagner, she wants Mozart. When she wants Wagner, I want Mozart. We end up meeting somewhere like Star Trek.

When I want Wagner, she wants Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  When I want Buffy, she wants House M.D.   :(

Elgarian



Here goes with a response to the last of the Met Ring cycle DVDs (I watched them out of sequence).

I've always found Siegfried the most difficult of the four (partly I think because of the lack of female voices in the first two Acts, to bring some variety to the vocal sound texture), and was shocked to discover, when listening to the Solti Siegfried for the first time about 3 weeks ago, that I experienced hardly a dull moment. Wonderfully dramatic, with a sound stage almost tangible, and as musically articulate as I could hope for. So I approached the Levine Met DVD(s) with a lot more optimism than I'd otherwise have managed to summon. Coming with Solti (audio only of course) as the most recent background, I found the Levine seemed a good deal more patchy. I found myself losing focus in some of the more ponderous dialogues (Wotan and Mime telling the whole tale again to each other, etc). And it hurts to say this, but Act 3 never really took off for me because of Hildegard Behrens's Brunnhilde. I've mentioned this before when posting about the Gotterdammerung, but although she lives the part wonderfully well, her singing often seems thin, edgy, and strained to these ears, and particularly so in Siegfried Act 3.

Looking back overall, then, and awarding medals, I think for me Walkure stands out as the pinnacle of the Met cycle, with a commendable Gotterdammerung in second place. Siegfried comes in as a rather patchy third, and Das Rheingold seems, by comparison with all these, stodgy, static, worthy, but dull.

Elgarian

#325
BUT THEN...

there was this:



Yes, I couldn't resist remortgaging the house and buying the box set of Chereau's Ring. I've heard this production, but never seen it. Today I watched the first two scenes of Rheingold, expecting to find myself squirming at the non-traditionalisms. There was no squirming at all. I was gripped from the beginning. I loved the set, with the Rhinemaidens cavorting along the top of the dam. And these Rhinemaidens are real temptresses, oozing sexuality. The singing is superb to match. Alberich is the most convincing dirty old man, being led on mercilessly. And the music - oh my goodness, I found myself swept away by the music quite compellingly. I can't pin down the difference, but Boulez makes Levine seem a bit lightweight, somehow. I seem to hear more - more detail - and it hits me more convincingly.

I believe thoroughly in McIntyre's Wotan, whereas Morris's was a rather static character with whom I felt uninvolved. The only quibble I have so far - and it's a significant one - is with the daft giants, who look as if they'd have difficulty getting in and out of bed, let alone building Valhalla. The silly arms, the absurd proportions - surely this was a major artistic blunder on the production side? Or am I missing some point of irony here? Please tell me.

Giants apart, I'm both thrilled and astonished by my decision to get one of these sets. It's a very, very exciting prospect ahead.

knight66

Perhaps the point re the giants was to visually underline their ineptness in dealing with life. They may have been able to build a city, but they were so easily seduced by temptation and so quickly succumbed to the malign influence of the ring, showing that the bigger you are the harder you fall.

Just a thought.

I remember enjoying the production....until GJ enters the scene. But that is my problem, not yours.

Memories!

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Wendell_E

#327
Quote from: Elgarian on August 27, 2010, 05:43:00 AM
The only quibble I have so far - and it's a significant one - is with the daft giants, who look as if they'd have difficulty getting in and out of bed, let alone building Valhalla. The silly arms, the absurd proportions - surely this was a major artistic blunder on the production side? Or am I missing some point of irony here? Please tell me.

Absurd proportions?  You should see the giants in the later Kupfer/Barenboim production!  I really liked that production overall, though (Kupfer, I mean, but I love the Chéreau one as well).  Too bad that's the only part of that Ring Netflix is currently carrying.

I've heard the giants in the Chéreau production came off much better live in the theatre than in TV closeups.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

Elgarian

Quote from: knight on August 27, 2010, 08:23:02 AM
Perhaps the point re the giants was to visually underline their ineptness in dealing with life. They may have been able to build a city, but ...
Yes, OK ... but build a city? I think they'd have trouble putting one children's building brick on top of another. It's the rubbery arms that are particularly derisory - Fafner's attack on Fasolt makes Monty Python's fish-slapping dance look positively lethal.

However, I don't want to attach undue importance to it - opera productions in general are full of neo-pantomime absurdities, after all! Having now watched the rest of the Chereau Rheingold, I can only confirm how much I've enjoyed it. I suppose it never quite lived up to its highpoint - the first scene with those wonderful Rhinemaidens - but it's still full of drama and action, and the musical flow never flags. The camera work is effective too - using cutaway moments to pick up the responses from one character to another.

On, then, to Walkure.

DarkAngel

Quote from: Elgarian on August 20, 2010, 01:05:35 PM


Interesting, this. In so many obvious ways this Met production is superior to the Karajan version that I wrote about earlier, and yet, and yet - there's a kind woodenness about it. Siegfried Jerusalem's Loge doesn't quite seem to catch fire, unlike his counterpart in Karajan's production, who does. Morris's Wotan seems as if he doesn't quite know what to do with his spear most of the time, so resorts to a set of formulaic stances involving it. And maybe that's how gods behave, but it makes them seem a bit dull. I'll be interested to have Scarpia's thoughts on this. I fancy that while we're both aware of the limitations of the Karajan (most notably the special effects), it actually has more life in it.

The scence depicted on cover where the entire family of gods work things out with giants in front of valhalla does seem very stiff to me also like statuary in a formal garden......compared to opening Rhine maidens segment and then going underground to steal the ring and helmet segment. The crafty Loge character does give some welcomed relief to the otherwise wooden gods clan.

Yes what does one do with a 8ft spear that you must lug around all the time and try to be cool  ;) 

Elgarian



I remember, when I listened to this Ring production on the radio in 1980-ish, that Act 1 of Walkure was electrifying. Now, 30 years on, and seeing it for the first time ... it still is electrifying. The electricity between Hofmann and Altmeyer positively crackles, both musically and dramatically. I was also struck by how very, very intimate the orchestra becomes in some of those passages - one could almost believe that in places the pair are accompanied by a mere string quartet. Is this what they mean about Boulez causing so much trouble (initially) by his restraint of the orchestra?

I was also struck (not for the first time) by how very like Elgar Wagner can be (yes I know it's the other way round, but this is how it felt, not how I know it really is). Some of the really tender aching string passages have such a 'yearning for the feminine' feel to them, not a million miles away from Elgar's windflower stuff in feeling.

I groaned a bit when Act 2 began, but Fricka sings her part so well, and I was so drawn in to the plight of McIntyre's Wotan, that the time fairly sped by. The appearance of Gwyneth Jones had me wondering if, after all these years, I'd find myself troubled by the dreaded 'wobble' that Mike dislikes so much ... but no, she was as magnificent as I remembered her to be. Passing as I am, straight from the Met production to this Chereau, I think the contrast between Jones's wild, seemingly effortless, soaring Brunnhilde, and the Behrens version, thinly straining at the edge most of the time, could hardly be more marked. Don't get me wrong, I've heard GJ sing very badly, so I know what her worst is like - but surely, surely this is far removed from that? What, I wonder, is this 'wobble'? Is it a slow, prominent and somehow objectionable vibrato? (If that's what it is, Behrens does her fair share of that.) And I can hear some of that, but it sounds very natural, and not at all troublesome. Anyway, for my money Gwyneth is, all things considered, a tremendously convincing Brunnhilde here, taken as a whole package.

Act 3 awaits.


yashin

I finally purchased the Weimar ring on DVD, resisting the extra cost of the blu-ray version.

I was left pretty underwhelmed by the Valencia Gotterdammerung on blu-ray, not the format just the production -it found it all emotionless and a rather cold production. Maybe the other 3 in the series might fair better.

So far i have been impressed with the Weimar ring.  Its fairly simple, low tech like the Stuttgart Ring - and i like it like that.  Like the Stuttgart Ring, i found myself understanding things better and thinking about scenes more than i had done with other Rings.

It seems to have got slated in a number of places as the worst Ring on DVD so what do i know - i enjoyed the playing of the orchestra, i did not find it too slow.  Some singers are better than others, and some scenes work and some do not.  But overall, i am more than glad i bought it and will dip into it again and again.

Anyone else seen any of them?  I think i have 6 full Ring cycles on DVD now, Amsterdam, Stuttgart, Copenhagen, Barcelona, Kufer/barenboim and now thie Weimar.  They all have faults and all have good and bad parts.  The Amserdam one is probably the best for my money-just beautiful playing from the orchestra and nice modern concepts without being overwhelming

DarkAngel

#332
Quote from: yashin on August 30, 2010, 07:23:30 PM
I finally purchased the Weimar ring on DVD, resisting the extra cost of the blu-ray version.

I was left pretty underwhelmed by the Valencia Gotterdammerung on blu-ray, not the format just the production -it found it all emotionless and a rather cold production. Maybe the other 3 in the series might fair better.

So far i have been impressed with the Weimar ring.  Its fairly simple, low tech like the Stuttgart Ring - and i like it like that.  Like the Stuttgart Ring, i found myself understanding things better and thinking about scenes more than i had done with other Rings.

It seems to have got slated in a number of places as the worst Ring on DVD so what do i know - i enjoyed the playing of the orchestra, i did not find it too slow.  Some singers are better than others, and some scenes work and some do not.  But overall, i am more than glad i bought it and will dip into it again and again.

Anyone else seen any of them?  I think i have 6 full Ring cycles on DVD now, Amsterdam, Stuttgart, Copenhagen, Barcelona, Kufer/barenboim and now thie Weimar.  They all have faults and all have good and bad parts.  The Amserdam one is probably the best for my money-just beautiful playing from the orchestra and nice modern concepts without being overwhelming

Is that the Ring where stage extends beyond orchestra like a circle runway with orchestra surrounded?

Seems that might be a distraction to see orchestra behind the actors......how do they handle this in DVD?
Use camera angles to hide Orchestra?

yashin

no the orchestra is visible in many of the scenes.  You are right in saying that they took out some of the front seats and built what looks like a set of saturn rings around the orchestra on which the singers move.  With clever lighting and a modern setting i find it very effective.

mc ukrneal

I just noticed that the Bohm Ring is being re-issued at a lower price point. Does this make it a first choice now (at roughly $50-70 or so)?
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

yashin

Interesting to see that Opera Now magazine reviews both the Weimar Ring cycle and the Valencia Fura del Baus Ring and the reviewer just about prefers the more intimate Weimar Ring.  Me too!!

Scarpia

Quote from: yashin on September 04, 2010, 06:40:19 AM
Interesting to see that Opera Now magazine reviews both the Weimar Ring cycle and the Valencia Fura del Baus Ring and the reviewer just about prefers the more intimate Weimar Ring.  Me too!!

That's the "St. Clair" cycle.  Most reviewers on Amazon rate it 1 or 2 stars out of 5. 

DarkAngel

#337
LA Ring 2010

This is what happens when hollywood and big budget of $32 million get to produce Ring Cycle......is this the future of Wagner Ring?  :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boa7zcaVOSo&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3kiGU8GdKk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKqqUWTuJLU&feature=channel

DavidRoss

Quote from: DarkAngel on September 04, 2010, 08:13:15 AM
LA Ring 2010

This is what happens when hollywood and big budget of $32 million get to produce Ring Cycle......is this the future of Wagner Ring?  :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boa7zcaVOSo&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3kiGU8GdKk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKqqUWTuJLU&feature=channel
Wow!  The Smurfs meet Teletubbies and Barney duels Sponge Bob Squarepants...our civilization is doomed!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

DarkAngel

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 04, 2010, 10:21:32 AM
Wow!  The Smurfs meet Teletubbies and Barney duels Sponge Bob Squarepants...our civilization is doomed!

Yes my first reaction when seeing these samples was did I accidently tune into Saturday morning cartoon show