Wagner One Ring to rule them all...

[Conor71]

I just noticed that the Bohm Ring is being re-issued at a lower price point. Does this make it a first choice now (at roughly $50-70 or so)?

I would be interested to know the answer to this too - I have also posted this in the Recommendations thread as well .

[Elgarian]

I would be interested to know the answer to this too [is it now a first choice at this new price?] - I have also posted this in the Recommendations thread as well .

Well, whether it makes an automatic first choice regardless of all other circumstances, is surely debatable. But if you mean 'Would Jack be a lunatic to pass up this unbelievable bargain offer on this famous and stunning live recording?', then yes, he would.

[Scarpia]

Well, whether it makes an automatic first choice regardless of all other cirumstances, it's surely debatable. But if you mean 'Would I be a lunatic to pass up this unbelievable bargain offer on this stunning live recording?', then yes.

Of course, Culshaw in his book, "The Golden Ring," describes the 1965 Bayreuth production with Bohm as execrable, and proof that only an idiot would bother see the Ring performed live at Bayreuth when they could listen to his records instead.   

[Elgarian]

Of course, Culshaw in his book, "The Golden Ring," describes the 1965 Bayreuth production with Bohm as execrable, and proof that only an idiot would bother see the Ring performed live at Bayreuth when they could listen to his records instead.

That's not you talking. It's characteristic of the condition known as 'Toxic Culshaw Neuritis'.

Incidentally the only reference to Bohm that I can find in my copy of the Gospel According to Culshaw questions the wisdom of the Bohm/Wieland Wagner decision to cut a two and a half minute scene from Gotterdammerung. I can't find the word 'execrable' anywhere. Does he have a go at it somewhere else?

[Scarpia]

That's not you talking. It's characteristic of the condition known as 'Toxic Culshaw Neuritis'.

Incidentally the only reference to Bohm that I can find in my copy of the Gospel According to Culshaw questions the wisdom of the Bohm/Wieland Wagner decision to cut a two and a half minute scene from Gotterdammerung. I can't find the word 'execrable' anywhere. Does he have a go at it somewhere else?

Look in the epilogue.  He describes returning to Bayreuth to promote the release of Walkure and attending a performance of part of the Ring cycle by the Bayreuth Festival.  He never mentions Bohm by name, but refers to the 1965 production.  Bohm's recording of the Ring at Bayreuth was the 1966 festival, if memory serves, but that was carried over of the 1965 production which was also directed by Bohm (according to Wikipedia).   Culshaw criticizes the stage direction, but also ridicules the unnamed conductor quite harshly (although I am paraphrasing when I use the word execrable).  I don't have the book in front of me and can't give a specific reference at the moment, but I will check when I am at home.

[Elgarian]

Look in the epilogue.  He describes returning to Bayreuth to promote the release of Walkure and attending a performance of part of the Ring cycle by the Bayreuth Festival.  He never mentions Bohm by name, but refers to the 1965 production.  Bohm's recording of the Ring at Bayreuth was the 1966 festival, if memory serves, but that was carried over of the 1965 production which was also directed by Bohm (according to Wikipedia).   Culshaw criticizes the stage direction, but also ridicules the unnamed conductor quite harshly (although I am paraphrasing when I use the word execrable).  I don't have the book in front of me and can't give a specific reference at the moment, but I will check when I am at home.

You're absolutely right, Scarps: "The moments of tension ... were loud and rhythmically slack; and the moments of release ... were conducted with a stupifying indifference. ... A performance of ... monumental ineptitude."

I hadn't actually read the dates carefully enough to realise it was Bohm he was talking about. Certainly what he says is light years off target, as anyone listening to the superb Bohm recordings would recognise. The kindest thing one can think is that maybe he had the misfortune to go on a bad day? But ... that bad? Surely not. I know there are people who think Bohm 'goes at it' too heavy-handedly, but I've never thought it myself.

You're going to make me deface and burn my copy of The Golden Ring now, aren't you?

[Scarpia]

You're absolutely right, Scarps: "The moments of tension ... were loud and rhythmically slack; and the moments of release ... were conducted with a stupifying indifference. ... A performance of ... monumental ineptitude."

I hadn't actually read the dates carefully enough to realise it was Bohm he was talking about. Certainly what he says is light years off target, as anyone listening to the superb Bohm recordings would recognise. The kindest thing one can think is that maybe he had the misfortune to go on a bad day? But ... that bad? Surely not. I know there are people who think Bohm 'goes at it' too heavy-handedly, but I've never thought it myself.

You're going to make me deface and burn my copy of The Golden Ring now, aren't you?

No, it is a fun thing to read, but too self-serving to revere, in my opinion. 

After that section which ridicules, I presume, Bohm, Culshaw goes on to excoriate the critics who failed to provide unconditional adulation to his recordings, then to predict that Opera Houses around the world would become extinct unless they see the light and strive to imitate the special effects in his recordings.   Oh well, Bayreuth managed to survive anyway, somehow.   

[Elgarian]

No, it is a fun thing to read, but too self-serving to revere, in my opinion.

I wondered whether it was a book I revered, and decided it wasn't. It's the recording I revere - and not just the recording for its own sake, but I enjoy the fact that it not only quickly acquired legendary status, but actually lived up to it whenever I listened to parts of it, and especially when I finally got one of my own. In that context, The Golden Ring qualifies as what Helene Hanff would have called an 'I was there' book - and as such acquires a value regardless of its literary quality or the personality of its author. I think that's how I see it, and why I enjoy it so much.

[AndyD.]

I remember, when I listened to this Ring production on the radio in 1980-ish, that Act 1 of Walkure was electrifying. Now, 30 years on, and seeing it for the first time ... it still is electrifying. The electricity between Hofmann and Altmeyer positively crackles, both musically and dramatically. I was also struck by how very, very intimate the orchestra becomes in some of those passages - one could almost believe that in places the pair are accompanied by a mere string quartet. Is this what they mean about Boulez causing so much trouble (initially) by his restraint of the orchestra?

I was also struck (not for the first time) by how very like Elgar Wagner can be (yes I know it's the other way round, but this is how it felt, not how I know it really is). Some of the really tender aching string passages have such a 'yearning for the feminine' feel to them, not a million miles away from Elgar's windflower stuff in feeling.

I groaned a bit when Act 2 began, but Fricka sings her part so well, and I was so drawn in to the plight of McIntyre's Wotan, that the time fairly sped by. The appearance of Gwyneth Jones had me wondering if, after all these years, I'd find myself troubled by the dreaded 'wobble' that Mike dislikes so much ... but no, she was as magnificent as I remembered her to be. Passing as I am, straight from the Met production to this Chereau, I think the contrast between Jones's wild, seemingly effortless, soaring Brunnhilde, and the Behrens version, thinly straining at the edge most of the time, could hardly be more marked. Don't get me wrong, I've heard GJ sing very badly, so I know what her worst is like - but surely, surely this is far removed from that? What, I wonder, is this 'wobble'? Is it a slow, prominent and somehow objectionable vibrato? (If that's what it is, Behrens does her fair share of that.) And I can hear some of that, but it sounds very natural, and not at all troublesome. Anyway, for my money Gwyneth is, all things considered, a tremendously convincing Brunnhilde here, taken as a whole package.

Act 3 awaits.

I love this Act 1 better than any other except the Karajan.

I would be interested to know the answer to this too - I have also posted this in the Recommendations thread as well .

Don't hesitate, it's great, and for the price you've got it made with that one.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Solti's recording is my favorite. Karajan and Furtwangler are close, though. Karajan's recording, although magnificent, is in some parts too fast-paced and some powerful parts are singed too softly/vice versa. Karl Ridderbusch as Fafner and Hagen is little too soft to my taste, although still excellent singer. I especially appreciate Dietrich-Fischer-Dieskau as Wotan in Rheingold: it seems like he fits every baritone/bassbaritone role perfectly. Furtwangler's legendary La Scala Ring and Italian Radio Ring are also close to Solti, but In La Scala singers are clearly better than orchestra and in Italian Radio orchestra is better than singers. So I pick Solti because in that recording both orchestra and singers are both as magnificent.

George London, one of the greatest Wotans ever, but Hans Hotter in Walküre and Siegfried surpasses everyone. Contrast between London's more youthful voice and Hotter's deeper give perfect picture about time elapsed between Rheingold and Walküre. Hotter's voice can be tremendously powerful like thunder, but also gentle as zephyr. My opinion: young Hotter is divine... but old Hotter is even better! Nilsson is of course amazing Brünnhilde and I have always appreciated more her high voice compared to another awesome Brünnhilde, more deep-voiced Flagstad, who does great job with Fricka's role in Rheingold. Christa Ludwig as Fricka in Walküre is much younger and thus makes slightly better portyrayal IMO and also as Waltraute in Götterdämmerung. Gerhilde, Waltraute, Helmwige, Siegrune, Rossweisse, Ortlinde, Schwertleite and Grimgerde in Walküre have gorgeous singers in Vera Schlosser, Brigitte Fassbaender, Berit Lindholm, Vera Little, Claudia Hellmann, Helga Dernesch, Helen Watts and Marilyn Tyler, respectively.
I have heard some people disliking Set Svanholm's portrayal of Loge, but to me he is exactly like Loge is supposed to be. Paul Kuen as Mime in Rheingold is pitiful Mime under Alberich's power... Gerhard Stolze as Mime in Siegfried is best - Mime - ever. Oh God, I love him! Wolfgang Windgassen as Siegfried - no words needed. Gustav Neidlinger is THE Alberich for me: his voice is bitter, tragic, sympathetic, goofy, revengeful, crushing, sarcastic and strong. Everything you could ask for from the lord of the Nibelungs and lord of the Ring! Walter Kreppel is poor soppy Fasolt and there doesn't exist better Fafner than Kurt Böhme and his sinister, pitch-black voice. Eberhard Wächter and Waldemar Kmennt as Donner and Froh really sound like true brothers.

Although both Rhinemaidens (Oda Balsborg, Hetty Plümacher and Ira Malaniuk in Rheingold; Lucia Popp, Gwyneth Jones and Maureen Guy in Götterdämmerung" are superb singers I think Götterdämmerung trio is slightly better. Gottlob Frick was born in Hagen's role. He is awesome Hunding also, but nothing can beat his portrayal of Nibelung's son. "Hoiho! Hoiho!" His pitch-black voice makes me shiver every time I hear it. James King and Regine Crespin are capable Siegmund and Sieglinde. Fabulous Marga Höffgen is better Erda than Jean Madeira IMO. Helen Watts, Grace Hoffman and only finn singer, legendary Anita Välkki as Norns hit a homerun.

You know it is hard-core Ring when Joan Sutherland is Woodbird. Oh yeah! Oh yeah! Claire Watson has perhaps cutest voice I have ever heard. Clever combination with roles of Freia and Gutrune. And let's not forget majestic Dietrich-Fischer-Dieskau as Gunther. His solemn voice really captures royalty of the character.

And finally: Vienna Philharmonic and sir Georg Solti, perhaps best orchestra in the world and quite possibly my favorite Wagner conductor. There isn't single flaw in their co-operation. It's... beautiful.

//And chorus of vassals and women in Götterdämmerung! Brilliant!

[kaergaard]

Solti's recording is my favorite.

A little sad that you too, Alberich, rate Solti as No. 1. Solti is not a recording a stage performance, it's a studio recording, where every bit of off-sound was corrected and a new version added, every not sung by those stars is artificially sound perfect! That is not opora!

Give me any time a stage performance with a few clunkers, and I have experienced Wagner, not the product of some sound engineering wizzard!

I am ready for the rotten eggs and tomatoes, but you won't be able to change my mind. Wagner meant his Gesamtkunstwerke to be performend on an opera stage, not in in a sound studio! 

[Wendell_E]

Wagner meant his Gesamtkunstwerke to be performend on an opera stage, not in in a sound studio! 

...and he meant it to be heard and seen in a theatre, not in our living rooms!  Recordings are evil!     And I have thousands of 'em.   

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Oh, I know it's kind of a cliché to pick up Solti. And I am aware that they polished sound with studio equipment, I just don't care about it. I believe they made good enough job anyway. It's also kind of nostalgic reason since it was my first Ring and I have grown fond of it. But of course there are many Ring recordings still not tested out.

Btw, those Levine DVD:s kick ass! Levine may not be best conductor but still one of the best ones nowadays.

Live performances still beats the crap out of recordings naturally, even though with recordings you can use more your imagination... it is still not same. But live recordings with audience... somewhat annoy me with coughing (I cough all the time even in opera so I am really not one to blame them though, ) and worst cases include applauding during the acts, which isn't part of Wagner tradition.

// I meant the old DVDs.

[DavidRoss]

Oh, I know it's kind of cliché to pick up Solti. And I am aware that they polished sound with studio equipment, I just don't care about it. I believe they made good enough job anyway. It's also kind of nostalgic reason since it was my first Ring and I have grown fond of it. But of course there are many Ring recordings still not tested out.

Btw, those Levine DVD:s kick ass! Levine may not be best conductor but still one of the best ones nowadays.

Are there new Levine DVDs, or are you referring to that old production with Morris, Jerusalem, & Behrens?  Based on the Rhinegold I saw a few months back, when they come out with the new one on DVD it'll be a must buy.

And chalk me up as another Solti fan in Wagner--the overheated drama and good sound quality work!

[marvinbrown]

  Wagner Fans, Hello!  it's good to be back posting on this thread.  For the past couple of days I have been listening to Das Rheingold from this set:

 

  I am shocked because after only hearing Das Rheingold I am starting to prefer this set over Solti's!!!    Is it just me or does Bohm have a better understanding of Wagner's music than Solti?  I say this because I find that the Bohm set is more "fluid", it  "flows better" than the Solti set!  I do not know if this is the result of it being a live performance vs the "start and stop" affair of a studio recording (Solti)? Anyone here care to comment.

  I am also looking at acquiring my 3rd Ring cycle now and have turned my attention to the KARAJAN SET!  I'd like some feedback on the Karajan set.  They say that it is the most "beautiful" lyrical Ring on record, I am not saying that Wagner's music needs to be so, but if Karajan is able to bring something new to the music of the Ring that would interest me. 

  marvin
  PS: Regarding the Bohm set: my fears about the the allegedly audible prompter  proved to be senseless!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I am shocked because after only hearing Das Rheingold I am starting to prefer this set over Solti's!!!   Is it just me or does Bohm have a better understanding of Wagner's music than Solti?  I say this because I find that the Bohm set is more "fluid", it  "flows better" than the Solti set!  I do not know if this is the result of it being a live performance vs the "start and stop" affair of a studio recording (Solti)? Anyone here care to comment.

  I am also looking at acquiring my 3rd Ring cycle now and have turned my attention to the KARAJAN SET!  I'd like some feedback on the Karajan set.  They say that it is the most "beautiful" lyrical Ring on record, I am not saying that Wagner's music needs to be so, but if Karajan is able to bring something new to the music of the Ring that would interest me.  

  marvin
  PS: Regarding the Bohm set: my fears about the the allegedly audible prompter  proved to be senseless!

So, your fears about the prompter were unfounded... Excellent! What you say about Böhm is correct - you get Wagner in all his exciting immediacy. Solti's and Karajan's cycles are studio recordings, with all the advantages. But the one ingredient they can't score on is the sense of hearing the whole drama unfold in real-time. That said, I love those other sets, too. In Das Rheingold and Siegfried Act I and Act II I prefer Karajan, in Die Walküre, Siegfried Act III and Götterdämmerung Solti.

[marvinbrown]

So, your fears about the prompter were unfounded... Excellent! What you say about Böhm is correct - you get Wagner in all his exciting immediacy. Solti's and Karajan's cycles are studio recordings, with all the advantages. But the one ingredient they can't score on is the sense of hearing the whole drama unfold in real-time. That said, I love those other sets, too. In Das Rheingold and Siegfried Act I and Act II I prefer Karajan, in Die Walküre, Siegfried Act III and Götterdämmerung Solti.

  Thank you for the feedback Jezetha  !!  I have heard that Karajan's Rheingold is one of the many highlights of his cycle. What surprises me is that you prefer Karajan's Siegrfied Act I and II to Solti whereas I consider Solti's Siegfried the highlight of that cycle!!  What is it about Karajan's Siegfried that you prefer over Solti's?

  marvin

[Brahmsian]

  Thank you for the feedback Jezetha  !!  I have heard that Karajan's Rheingold is one of the many highlights of his cycle. What surprises me is that you prefer Karajan's Siegrfied Act I and II to Solti whereas I consider Solti's Siegfried the highlight of that cycle!!  What is it about Karajan's Siegfried that you prefer over Solti's?

  marvin

Marvin,

Have you also considered Levine's/Met Ring Cycle from the mid-late eighties?  Die Walkure in particular is fantastic!    That being said, overall, I still prefer the Solti Ring.  I think it is unmatched for raw power. 

Are there any other Ring cycles that use an actual steerhorn in Gotterdammerung, like in the Solti Ring?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

  Thank you for the feedback Jezetha  !!  I have heard that Karajan's Rheingold is one of the many highlights of his cycle. What surprises me is that you prefer Karajan's Siegrfied Act I and II to Solti whereas I consider Solti's Siegfried the highlight of that cycle!!  What is it about Karajan's Siegfried that you prefer over Solti's?

I'll be very precise - I prefer Karajan in the Wotan-Erda scene. His Third Act Prelude has a power and majesty which Solti, with his edginess, doesn't (want to) match. BUT I find the duet between Windgassen and Nilsson (Solti) really scorching. Karajan is beautiful, but doesn't raise the roof IMO.

[marvinbrown]

Marvin,

Have you also considered Levine's/Met Ring Cycle from the mid-late eighties?  Die Walkure in particular is fantastic!    That being said, overall, I still prefer the Solti Ring.  I think it is unmatched for raw power. 

Are there any other Ring cycles that use an actual steerhorn in Gotterdammerung, like in the Solti Ring?

  Hello ChamberNut, yes I do have the Levine Ring but on DVD and enjoy that very much.  I find Levine's recording more lyrical (the MET orchestra certainly shines in bringing out the beauty in Wagner's music) than Solti's approach, sadly though I believe that Solti and Bohm for that matter had a better cast of singers (I say this with all due respect to James Morris and company).  I am discovering that there really is no perfect recording of a colossal work like the Ring!

  marvin