Wagner One Ring to rule them all...

Started by canninator, September 24, 2007, 03:37:41 AM

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Jaakko Keskinen

Quote from: Jezetha on February 03, 2011, 10:34:52 AM

Isn't it a fact that Wagner's motifs are pliable entities, which can be stretched, shortened, slowed down and speeded up, harmonically changed, melodically altered et cetera? Where in Parsifal do you think Karajan chooses a wrong tempo? (No rush! But I am interested.)

Especially in Act I following Gurnemanz's words "Nun achte wohl und lasst mich sehn" etc. until Titurel's words "Mein Sohn Amfortas". Not all the time though. This is just my personal taste because rushing in Parsifal IMO kind of kills the atmosphere. Not saying that Karajan's Parsifal recordings are bad, not at all!
"Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him. Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand."

- Victor Hugo

Scarpia

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on February 03, 2011, 09:02:11 PM
Err....the one Ring that's been 'forgotten by them all', yet fully deserving wider acclaim, is this wonderfully spirited live Bavarian Ring from Sawallisch. Sparkling sound rounds out a front runner that has sadly never seemed to make any headway on GMG. Shame. Doesn't help that it's now OOP.   






I think it was also released on video tape, but no DVD version.   :(

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Harry on February 04, 2011, 04:24:43 AM
I am so happy, I am not ruled by Wagner, in fact I have no single work of him in my collection.....anymore.  ;D ;D ;D ;D 8)

Mentioning his absence means the man still has a grip...  ;)
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: marvinbrown on February 04, 2011, 03:49:47 AM
  I am ashamed to say that Ihave not even heard of this Ring cycle....and now it is out of print  :(!

Quote from: Scarpia on February 04, 2011, 05:15:20 AM
I think it was also released on video tape, but no DVD version.   :(

Yes, originally a VHS release that actually won the Gramophone video award for 1989!

I do have to give kudos to EMI for actually standing behind this production and keeping it in circulation (mostly on CD) for so long (until just recently), which is understandable given the high quality of the performances. But I suppose with such a high profile (and expensive) Ring from Haitink already taking up much of EMI's marketing machine it's inevitable Sawallisch would be muscled aside.

I used to own Haitink's Siegfried but for my money the quality of Sawallisch easily justifies it's existence. If only it were lavished with comparable marketing dollars. 

 
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

bigshot

#384
Quote from: marvinbrown on February 03, 2011, 08:07:04 AM

  Back to Karajan, I much appreciate your and Jezetha's responses.  I will eventually buy it that I am sure, I know myself.  But because it is going to cost me a little under £70 (it's not cheap Sarge!)

karajan's Rheingold is the best of his cycle, with the only drawback being the relatively lightweight Wotan of Fischer Dieskau. However, you can have your cake and eat it too if you get the DVD of Rheingold by Karajan from the Saltzberg festival. Better Wotan, great staging, good sound- that strange multi-miked sound that Katajan favored, but not as extreme as on the studio version..

Karajan's Ring was my first, but since I've heard more, the Rheingold is thenonly one in that cycle that I keep coming back to. My dream Ring is cobbled from several sets

Rheingold- Karajan video
Walkure- Act 1 Walter VPO, the rest either Bohm or Leinsdorf
Siegfried- Either Goodall or Janowski
Götterdämmerung- Solti

Favorite historical Ring- Furtwangler LaScala

But, overall... I think the best single Ring is the Mehta Valencia Ring. Its only drawback is the appearance of some of the singers, but that goes with the territory.

Sawallisch's Ring is good, but it doesn't have many unique qualities. Haitink's Ring is boring... a real trick with music this exciting and passionate.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: bigshot on February 05, 2011, 01:23:23 PM
karajan's Rheingold is the best of his cycle, with the only drawback being the relatively lightweight Wotan of Fischer Dieskau. However, you can have your cake and eat it too if you get the DVD of Rheingold by Karajan from the Saltzberg festival. Better Wotan...


By the sound of it (watching the YouTube clip) it was Thomas Stewart? Though I like Fischer Dieskau in the Wotan role. His young-ish voice fits the youthful, impetuous Wotan of Das Rheingold, IMO.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Jaakko Keskinen

I agree. Fischer-Dieskau was awesome Wotan. He is one of those very few baritones/bass-baritones whose voice fits in every single role. And he was awesome conductor as well! He looks still youthful for over 80-year old when looking at latest photos of him.
"Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him. Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand."

- Victor Hugo

marvinbrown

#387
Quote from: bigshot on February 05, 2011, 01:23:23 PM
karajan's Rheingold is the best of his cycle, with the only drawback being the relatively lightweight Wotan of Fischer Dieskau. However, you can have your cake and eat it too if you get the DVD of Rheingold by Karajan from the Saltzberg festival. Better Wotan, great staging, good sound- that strange multi-miked sound that Katajan favored, but not as extreme as on the studio version..

Karajan's Ring was my first, but since I've heard more, the Rheingold is thenonly one in that cycle that I keep coming back to. My dream Ring is cobbled from several sets

Rheingold- Karajan video
Walkure- Act 1 Walter VPO, the rest either Bohm or Leinsdorf
Siegfried- Either Goodall or Janowski
Götterdämmerung- Solti

Favorite historical Ring- Furtwangler LaScala

But, overall... I think the best single Ring is the Mehta Valencia Ring. Its only drawback is the appearance of some of the singers, but that goes with the territory.

Sawallisch's Ring is good, but it doesn't have many unique qualities. Haitink's Ring is boring... a real trick with music this exciting and passionate.

  That is not very encouraging bigshot  8)!!  I respect your point of view that to get the "best" Ring available one might have to  mix and match to suit one's taste, but to only be drawn to Karajan's Das Rheingold does not speak well of the entire cycle.  Do you not find any redeeming qualities in Karajan's other three operas (The Viking, Siegfried and Twilight of the Gods)?? Or were you meeting me halfway on my comment about the Karajan cycle's rather hefty price?

  marvin

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: marvinbrown on February 07, 2011, 02:01:55 AMDo you not find any redeeming qualities in Karajan's other three operas (The Viking, Siegfried and Twilight of the Gods)??

Emotions must be running high for you to change a Valkyrie into a Viking! But don't be discouraged - there is a lot to admire in the Karajan cycle!
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

bigshot

After about thirty or forty Rings, it's very hard to pick one all the way through. It's a massive undertaking and there are bound to be compromises here and there. The only Rings I have that come close to fitting that bill are Solti, Bohm and the new video Ring by Mehta. (there is a live recording of Rita Hunter and Alberto Remedios singing the Ring in English in Seattle that is a great unified whole too, but it is only available from Hunter's family on CD-R.) Karajan was my first Ring and the orchestral playing in Rheingold is fantastic, particularly the descent into Nibelheim as someone already mentioned. But I really don't think I'd ever go back to listen to the rest all the way through. There are flaws in the cast, Karajan's orchestral balances and textures are weird, and the energy level droops at times, especially in the long monologues.

Do you have any Rings already? Is you already have a few of the major ones, then Karajan is a fine alternative.

marvinbrown

Quote from: Jezetha on February 07, 2011, 07:09:01 AM


Emotions must be running high for you to change a Valkyrie into a Viking! But don't be discouraged - there is a lot to admire in the Karajan cycle!

  I always get emotional when I buy Wagner, I just can't help it  :)!!  Doing the research can sometimes be agonizing but it can also be fun!  I took a gamble on the Bohm Ring and I was blown away, I love it when that happens  :D.

Quote from: bigshot on February 07, 2011, 09:46:18 AM
After about thirty or forty Rings, it's very hard to pick one all the way through. It's a massive undertaking and there are bound to be compromises here and there. The only Rings I have that come close to fitting that bill are Solti, Bohm and the new video Ring by Mehta. (there is a live recording of Rita Hunter and Alberto Remedios singing the Ring in English in Seattle that is a great unified whole too, but it is only available from Hunter's family on CD-R.) Karajan was my first Ring and the orchestral playing in Rheingold is fantastic, particularly the descent into Nibelheim as someone already mentioned. But I really don't think I'd ever go back to listen to the rest all the way through. There are flaws in the cast, Karajan's orchestral balances and textures are weird, and the energy level droops at times, especially in the long monologues.

Do you have any Rings already? Is you already have a few of the major ones, then Karajan is a fine alternative.

  Thank you for your response, I have Solti's Ring, Bohm's Ring and Levine on DVD (I am a bit of a traditionalist I can't help it) and long ago I had Furtwangler's RAI.  From what others are telling me and what I have read Karajan's Ring seems to be a fine alternative and a contrast to the styles of Solti and Bohm.

  marvin

bigshot

It's definitely different. Goodall and Knappertsbusch would be nice alternatives too. I was a traditionalist too until I saw the Valencia Ring.

Scarpia

Quote from: bigshot on February 07, 2011, 10:35:30 PM
It's definitely different. Goodall and Knappertsbusch would be nice alternatives too. I was a traditionalist too until I saw the Valencia Ring.

I was an avant-guard-ist until I saw the Valencia Ring...   :D

bigshot


marvinbrown

#394

  Hello Wagner fans!  It's marvin again  ::).......... ;D! Anyway, last night I was "fiddling" around on youtube and I came across this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj64jhy1swc
 
  I wanted to post it for your enjoyment (or lack thereof??) I am guessing this is from the Keilberth 1955 set from Bayreuth!  It is stunning but way too expensive for my meager wallet  :(. amazon.co.uk have it retailed at £100 including shipping  :o :o :o!

  marvin

AndyD.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 03, 2011, 07:35:08 AM
The end of Rheingold, too, is just tremendous in the Karajan. Those Berlin horns even outshine Vienna's.

The "too pretty to be dramatic" criticism is bullshit. Gorgeous it is but when power is called for Karajan delivers. I think no one has a more "dramatic" end to Act I Walküre than Janowitz, Vickers and Karajan. Karajan may not be quite as overwhelming as Solti in some instances but, hey, power ain't the be all end all of the Ring. You notice Wagner is actually stingy with his "big" moments.

Dernesch is a tremendous Brunnhilde, softer, more feminine, more womanly, than Nilsson with a tone of voice that appeals more to me. If Stewart is not among my favorite Wotans (those would be Fischer-Dieskau in Karajan's Rheingold, and Tomlinson in Barenboim's Ring) he's still very good and I prefer his more youthful voice to Hotter's old fart Wotan for Solti. The real weak link in the Karajan Ring is Jess Thomas's Siegfried but over the years I've come to appreciate his take on the character too.

Tempo...yeah, Karajan can be slow but not excessively slow. He's no Goodall or Knappertsbusch. Still, I prefer Bohm's tempos, and Krauss's.

And Solti's Ring is not Wagner's Ring, it's Culshaw's Ring ;D

Marvin, have you heard Böhm's Ride of the Valkyries yet? Best ever!

Sarge

I agree with all this, except my favorite Ride is the Solti.

If it weren't for the Boulez act 1 of Die Walkure, I would pick the Karajan performance of that act above any of the others. I find the singers in that Karajan performance to be exemplary in their interpretation, adore the production, everything. In each opera of the Karajan Ring cycle, I find highlights, and I especially agree with Sarge about Gotterdammerung.

In order the essentials for me are the Solti, Bohm, Karajan, and the Krauss for a mono. Well, the Furtwangler is certainly worth getting as well. I haven't heard many more recent Rings. The Copenhagen was good, but I'll probably never own that. I have the Levine on dvd, but haven't heard to much of the studio. I'm still considering that one, as i haven't heard much about it, and I'm mostly happy owning the ones I've already mentioned.
http://andydigelsomina.blogspot.com/

My rockin' Metal wife:


marvinbrown



  Wagner fans, I just spent the past 2 days listening to the first two installments of the Karajan Ring Cycle (Das Rheingold and Die Walkure). This set:

 

  I found myself having mixed feelings about Karajan's take on Wagner's masterpiece (sorry Sarge- please forgive  0:)).  The orchestral passages (Wotan's Farewell for example) sounded sublimely beautiful, glossy, polished.  However coming off of Solti and Bohm's Ring I found the Karajan Ring seriously lacking in gravity and tension.  I need some aggression, and a lot of gravity in Wagner and it took my ears quite some time to get used to Karajan's more "docile" approach. I kept saying to myself something's missing, the voices and too light etc. etc.   On the whole, I can not say that I am a fan.   

  This set is going to take me some time to appreciate, repeated listening will be necessary.  Tomorrow I shall tackle Karajan's Siegfried....wish me luck!

  marvin   

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: marvinbrown on April 30, 2011, 09:39:04 AM
I found myself having mixed feelings about Karajan's take on Wagner's masterpiece (sorry Sarge- please forgive  0:)).

Nothing to forgive, Marvin. I can't predict how anyone will react to performances I love and I don't get upset when someone doesn't agree with me.  I'm just sorry it's disappointed you.

QuoteTomorrow I shall tackle Karajan's Siegfried....wish me luck!

Since I think Siegfried is the wink link in the Karajan cycle, I don't expect it will change your mind. But stranger things have happened  :D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2011, 12:31:31 PMSince I think Siegfried is the weak link in the Karajan cycle, I don't expect it will change your mind. But stranger things have happened.

I have always liked it...  ;)
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2011, 12:59:25 PM
I have always liked it...  ;)


I knows it  :D  (a quote from my favorite Our Gang character)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"