Wagner One Ring to rule them all...

Started by canninator, September 24, 2007, 03:37:41 AM

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Mirror Image

#560
I think the title of this thread is really interesting because I don't think there is one Ring to rule them all. Just like there's no one Daphnis et Chloe or Rite of Spring to rule them all. Each performance whether it moved you or not offers something different and sometimes this difference can change your perspective of the work. Like for example, Karajan conducting Schoenberg seems like a bad joke, but the honest truth is he finds the inner beauty of the music whereas a conductor like Boulez will bring out the more cerebral side of the music. Both approaches work well but both of them are neither the right way as there isn't a right way to interpret music. You can disagree with an interpretation, but ultimately you're disagreeing with the conductor's personal choices. The music itself is eternal and will continue to thrive regardless who gets their hands, or in this case, baton on it. ;)

Whether someone likes Karajan's, Solti's, or Bohm's Ring cycles is ultimately irrelevant to me, because I look for different things in the music than the other person.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 22, 2011, 06:34:15 PM
I like your description here, Johan. I'm listening to Siegfried right now and it does have a lot of color. The opening prelude sounded like it came from the abyss. :)


Yes, it does. And the Prelude to the Second Act - Alberich keeping watch near Fafner's lair - repeats some of the material, but with an important difference: he sees light in the distance, Wotan approaching on his horse. Later in the act you have the Waldweben, the famous 'Forest Murmurs', the first 'impressionistic' tone-painting in music, and the first premonition of the light that will engulf us when Siegfried kisses Brünnhilde awake in the Third Act.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

rubio

#562
Quote from: PSmith08 on May 18, 2011, 09:41:19 AM
I think this about sums it up (Tomlinson's Wotan is indeed one for the ages), and I would only add that, at least when I bought the Warner Classics reissue, the set had the fantastic libretti from the original Teldec releases, which go so far as to mark the Leitmotiven. Quite a far cry from the modern practice of giving us a DVD-ROM with the libretto on it.

I would like to sample the Barenboim Ring, and I would prefer to buy one of the original, separate operas with libretti instead of the recently released slimline, no-frills version. To me it seems very attractive to have libretti with the Leitmotiven marked. So which of the Barenboim Ring operas should I sample first?

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Edit. How do I adjust the size of these "asin" images?
"One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain" Bob Marley

Mirror Image

Quote from: rubio on June 23, 2011, 10:36:14 PM
I would like to sample the Barenboim Ring, and I would prefer to buy one of the original, separate operas with libretti instead of the recently released slimline, no-frills version. To me it seems very attractive to have libretti with the Leitmotiven marked. So which of the Barenboim Ring operas should I sample first?

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Edit. How do I adjust the size of these "asin" images?

Why not start with the first opera of the cycle Das Rheingold? I guess I'm a bit of traditionalist in the fact that I like to start with the first work of a cycle. If the opening prelude, which builds up to a huge crescendo, doesn't grab your attention, then I'm not sure anything will. ;) ;D

listener

It's been a long time since anyone mentioned this book, and not on this thread from what I have seen...
John Culshaw's  Ring Resounding,  OOP but some local stores might have a used copy at a non-astronomical price.
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"Keep your hand on the throttle and your eye on the rail as you walk through life's pathway."

Mirror Image

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 23, 2011, 12:04:49 AM

Yes, it does. And the Prelude to the Second Act - Alberich keeping watch near Fafner's lair - repeats some of the material, but with an important difference: he sees light in the distance, Wotan approaching on his horse. Later in the act you have the Waldweben, the famous 'Forest Murmurs', the first 'impressionistic' tone-painting in music, and the first premonition of the light that will engulf us when Siegfried kisses Brünnhilde awake in the Third Act.

I hate to say it but I find Siegfried to be the weakest opera in the cycle so far or at least musically speaking. Die Wulkure was outstanding as was Das Rheingold, I can't wait to hear Gotterdammerung, especially since you described it as radically different in style compared to Das Rheingold.

marvinbrown

Quote from: rubio on June 23, 2011, 10:36:14 PM
I would like to sample the Barenboim Ring, and I would prefer to buy one of the original, separate operas with libretti instead of the recently released slimline, no-frills version. To me it seems very attractive to have libretti with the Leitmotiven marked. So which of the Barenboim Ring operas should I sample first?

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Edit. How do I adjust the size of these "asin" images?

  Hello Rubio,

  As much as I like owning the original version of CD recordings I politely point out to you the the new "slim line " version of the Barenboim Ring includes the libretti with the leitmotives clearly designated as they appear in the music drama.  I think you will find it cheaper to buy the whole set as opposed to the each music drama "opera" individually.  Just a thought..........

  marvin

 

rubio

Quote from: marvinbrown on June 27, 2011, 03:03:41 AM
  Hello Rubio,

  As much as I like owning the original version of CD recordings I politely point out to you the the new "slim line " version of the Barenboim Ring includes the libretti with the leitmotives clearly designated as they appear in the music drama.  I think you will find it cheaper to buy the whole set as opposed to the each music drama "opera" individually.  Just a thought..........

  marvin



Is your box set released in 2011 or is it the 2005 version (which included libretti, but now is discontinued).
"One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain" Bob Marley

Mirror Image

Quote from: marvinbrown on June 27, 2011, 03:03:41 AM
  Hello Rubio,

  As much as I like owning the original version of CD recordings I politely point out to you the the new "slim line " version of the Barenboim Ring includes the libretti with the leitmotives clearly designated as they appear in the music drama.  I think you will find it cheaper to buy the whole set as opposed to the each music drama "opera" individually.  Just a thought..........

  marvin



Actually, the newly reissued Barenboim set contains NO libretti and only contains production notes. That's about it. The old set, which is out-of-print and very expensive is the one that contains everything in it.

Mirror Image

#569
Quote from: rubio on June 27, 2011, 07:06:06 AM
 
Is your box set released in 2011 or is it the 2005 version (which included libretti, but now is discontinued).

Why even get Barenboim's to begin with anyway? I seldom return to Barenboim at all because of the loud, and distracting, stage noises. I'm actually thinking of getting rid of the set. Right now, Karajan and Solti are the best cycles I think. You can buy Karajan's individually and you can also buy Solti's individually, but I think Siegfried from the Solti is out-of-print, but you could probably find it in the used market.

The best thing I did was listen to Sarge. The guy simply knows his Wagner. He was completely right about Karajan. It has become my favorite Ring cycle.

*If anyone is interested in buying my Barenboim then PM me and I'll quote you a price.*

Mandryka

#570
Quote from: Leon on June 27, 2011, 08:03:07 AM
Of course, there is always the option of buying one of the books* on the Ring,

I went through a time a few years ago when I tried to read the English language literature on The Ring. I was interested in how to make sense of the plot really -- basic questions like "Why does Bruenhilde die?" I got nothing out of Donington Jungian psychobabble, and Cook's "I saw the World End" is frustratingly incomplete, and anyway I'm not sure that the approach -- looking at how Wagner changes the source material -- is the most fruitful one. Tanner is very  hard philosophically (and I have a doctorate in philosophy!), and anyway it's a bit too short -- just a few pages to each opera )(although there are ideas running through the whole book)

I would recommend the Cook, and Tanner,  but there is one book which shone out as the most well considered IMO  is Philip Kitcher's and Richard Schacht's Finding an Ending(OUP) This is really for people who want to know what The Ring is about. (It also, by the way, includes a really excellent analysis of power in Don Giovanni.)


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Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

marvinbrown

Quote from: rubio on June 27, 2011, 07:06:06 AM
 

Is your box set released in 2011 or is it the 2005 version (which included libretti, but now is discontinued).

  Sorry I was not aware that there were 2 slim line sets of the Barenboim Ring! The Barenboim set I have has 4 massive libretti one for each opera and the leitmotifs are clearly spelled out as they appear. In addition the notes of the leitmotif are printed which pleased me to see. I guess mine is the 2005 version then!

  Basically I went to HMV on Oxford Street London and bought the Barenboim set on discount for £60  on sale, not knowing what I was getting. Sorry for the confusion.

  marvin

Mirror Image

Quote from: marvinbrown on June 27, 2011, 10:47:50 AMBasically I went to HMV on Oxford Street London and bought the Barenboim set on discount for £60  on sale, not knowing what I was getting. Sorry for the confusion.

  marvin

I really didn't know what I was getting either as none of the reviews I read mentioned stage noise and, if the review did mention it, it didn't really emphasize how bad the noises actually were. I'm discarding this set and I will probably not buy any more Ring cycles as I probably have what many have said to be the best ones: Solti and Karajan. I don't do the historical recording thing, so I'm not interested in this. What I am interested in is minimal noise, orchestral clarity, and a conductor who knows how to navigate through these massive works.

marvinbrown

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2011, 10:51:58 AM
I really didn't know what I was getting either as none of the reviews I read mentioned stage noise and, if the review did mention it, it didn't really emphasize how bad the noises actually were. I'm discarding this set and I will probably not buy any more Ring cycles as I probably have what many have said to be the best ones: Solti and Karajan. I don't do the historical recording thing, so I'm not interested in this. What I am interested in is minimal noise, orchestral clarity, and a conductor who knows how to navigate through these massive works.

  I am so sorry to hear of your overall dissatisfaction with the stage noise in the Barenboim Rings. The Solti and Karajan Rings can certainly be sufficient to suit most Wagnerian needs  :)

  marvin

 

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 25, 2011, 08:36:16 PM
I hate to say it but I find Siegfried to be the weakest opera in the cycle so far or at least musically speaking. Die Wulkure was outstanding as was Das Rheingold, I can't wait to hear Gotterdammerung, especially since you described it as radically different in style compared to Das Rheingold.


I agree, but only when you mean the first two acts. They do sometimes give the impression of Wagner rehashing his old motivic material and getting tired of his project. But the Third Act is tremendous. He wrote that 12 years later, of course, after Tristan and Meistersinger intervened. And it shows. In Götterdämmerung there is a drop in inspiration, too, in the final act, with Siegfried's narration. Once he's dead, Wagner's inspiration returns. Long live Hagen.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Mirror Image

Quote from: marvinbrown on June 27, 2011, 12:36:01 PM
  I am so sorry to hear of your overall dissatisfaction with the stage noise in the Barenboim Ring. The Solti and Karajan Rings can certainly be sufficient to suit most Wagnerian needs  :)

  marvin

Yes, it is disappointing, but I guess if I nobody here wants to buy my set, then I can always use the discs as coasters. ;) Just kidding, I'll probably return to the cycle again at some point.

Mirror Image

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 27, 2011, 12:42:27 PM

I agree, but only when you mean the first two acts. They do sometimes give the impression of Wagner rehashing his old motivic material and getting tired of his project. But the Third Act is tremendous. He wrote that 12 years later, of course, after Tristan and Meistersinger intervened. And it shows. In Götterdämmerung there is a drop in inspiration, too, in the final act, with Siegfried's narration. Once he's dead, Wagner's inspiration returns. Long live Hagen.

Well, I'm more impressed with Gotterdammerung so far. I'll return to Siegfried at some point, but right now I have enough on my plate. I still need to listen to the rest of Gotterdammerung and I haven't heard Tristan und Isolde or Lohengrin yet. I also still need to listen to Karajan's Parsifal.

Mirror Image

Quote from: marvinbrown on March 26, 2008, 06:30:56 AM(Furtwangler's RAI- God what an awful orchestra  >:() have taught me that investing in a GREAT recording of the Ring Cycle can make all the difference in enjoying this Wagnerian masterpiece.

  marvin   

I was digging through some of the old posts on this thread and I noticed something rather contradictory in what you said here and what you posted to me later:

Quote from: marvinbrown on June 22, 2011, 12:27:59 AMPersonally I am very much a "vocal" "singer" fan, ie give me a superb cast (Krauss, Solti, Bohm) over a superb orchestra any day.

  marvin

I realize both of these quotes are years apart from each other, but I'm just curious why back in 2008 post you favored a good orchestra whereas now you don't? ??? Please explain.

Mirror Image

I have officially finished the Ring. What a glorious experience this has been! Now onto Tristan und Isolde. :)

marvinbrown

#579
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2011, 03:19:20 PM
I was digging through some of the old posts on this thread and I noticed something rather contradictory in what you said here and what you posted to me later:

I realize both of these quotes are years apart from each other, but I'm just curious why back in 2008 post you favored a good orchestra whereas now you don't? ??? Please explain.

  The problem with the RAI orchestra is that it is horrible IMHO.  The brass section is so bad to my ears that it sounds like it came from a high school band.  It is true that I favour great singers over a good orchestra but there are limits to how bad an orchestra can be before it becomes a problem for me. I believe the RAI meets those limits. I would  go so far as to say that the RAI orchestra is the worst I have heard on record.

  marvin