Schoenberg vs. Webern vs. Berg

[quintett op.57]

Subtracted all but the most relevant notes while eschewing everything that was superfluous or redundant. This isn't as new as you think. Bach does the same thing, except on a lesser scale. Still, if you took one of his fugues and milked every particle of musical invention in a romantic fashion you may be surprised just how huge those works really are.

You mean if you add romantic musical invention?

[Kullervo]

Here is a little articulate thingy from youtube of Boulez (a great composer in his own right)
talking about discovering the 3, focusing on Webern...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIEDMMhlu1g

Folks here probably have seen it already but he makes a few strong, succinct points imo...

I've seen it, I uploaded it.

[greg]

results are what i thought they'd be

I've seen it, I uploaded it.

yep, i saw it too- and he does make a great point, to listen to someone like Webern you have to be very calm and have no distractions to be able to enjoy it. I've noticed this, too, but in a different composer- Norgard. Sure, they're not exactly alike, but the overall style of using so much in such a little time can only be understood/enjoyed when you're in a certain state of mind, and it's not easy to get into that state of mind (which makes me suspect that's the main reason a lot of people don't like their music on first listening). The same could probably be said for Boulez's music, too.

[Cato]

"I am very happy!"

Schoenberg wins the beauty contest!   0:)

[greg]

"I am very happy!"

Schoenberg wins the beauty contest!   0:)

lol, he'd never in a million years beat Berg and Webern in a beauty contest 

but yeah, congratulations Arnold!
and to quote his most famous punchline, "I'll be back!"

(i'm just relieved no one posted the picture of him in his bathing suit)  0:)

[bwv 1080]

I basically agree with Boulez's criticism in his famous (and overly polemic) "Schoenberg is Dead" essay which is that Schoenberg and Berg fall into trying to fit serial techniques into conventional models, i.e. "Brahms with wrong notes".  To a greater extent than Schoenberg or Berg, Webern "got" what these techniques could best express.

[greg]

I basically agree with Boulez's criticism in his famous (and overly polemic) "Schoenberg is Dead" essay which is that Schoenberg and Berg fall into trying to fit serial techniques into conventional models, i.e. "Brahms with wrong notes".  To a greater extent than Schoenberg or Berg, Webern "got" what these techniques could best express.

you voted for Webern, didn't you? i see that he has 8 votes now 
(voting can only be so anonymous sometimes)

[springrite]

I have come to appreciate Webern much much more in recent years, but my favorite of the three has always been Berg. First and foremost, the two operas alone would put him over the top; secondly, the overwhelming emotionalism in his music (perfect reply to those who say 12 tone music is cold or academic) is irresistable.

[greg]

I have come to appreciate Webern much much more in recent years, but my favorite of the three has always been Berg. First and foremost, the two operas alone would put him over the top; secondly, the overwhelming emotionalism in his music (perfect reply to those who say 12 tone music is cold or academic) is irresistable.

i think i said this in my opening post, Berg would probably have been my favorite if he wrote as much as Schoenberg did.

btw, i like the new avatar, springrite! 

[springrite]

i think i said this in my opening post, Berg would probably have been my favorite if he wrote as much as Schoenberg did.

Yes, I saw that. But if you consider Lulu and Wozzeck, which comprises of so much music (especially if you read the score!), then he did write a lot of music!

[Kullervo]

Berg, and I don't feel any reason to justify it.

[springrite]

Had the choices been between master and pupils without splitting votes, pupils would have a healthy lead by now.

[karlhenning]

Sure, and tadpoles would out-tally frogs 

[Cato]

Sure, and tadpoles would out-tally frogs 

Sounds like it could be a new topic or a sub-topic!

What would Berg and Webern sound like without their Obi-Wan Schoenberg?!!!   

[Josquin des Prez]

What would Berg and Webern sound like without their Obi-Wan Schoenberg?!!!   

Mahler? 

[Kullervo]

Mahler? 

There is a funny anecdote in Willi Reich's Berg biography about a meeting between S, B, W and Mahler. Webern was so humbled by his presence that he felt he needed to raise his hand like a schoolboy before he spoke!

[val]

I prefer Schönberg: like Brahms he composed masterpieces in all genres, from the Choral music to the Lied, the orchestra, Concerto, chamber music. Unlike Brahms, he even composed an extraordinary opera.
Schönberg can be heard in the sequence of the great German tradition of the XIX century. I would say that I see him as a sort of Brahms of the XX century.

Webern is completely different. Although, sometimes he is not very far of that German tradition, as in the first part of his piano Variations, in other works he creates a new world, very personal, that has perhaps more to do with his inner personality that to the wish of creating a revolutionary music.

In my preferences Alban Berg comes in 3rd place, although I love Wozzeck, the opus 6, the 2 quartets, the chamber concert. It may seem absurd, but I feel that he had a more deep influence in the next generation of composers than Schönberg or Webern.

[Cato]

I prefer Schönberg: like Brahms he composed masterpieces in all genres, from the Choral music to the Lied, the orchestra, Concerto, chamber music. Unlike Brahms, he even composed an extraordinary opera.
Schönberg can be heard in the sequence of the great German tradition of the XIX century. I would say that I see him as a sort of Brahms of the XX century.

Certainly Schoenberg saw Brahms as a predecessor: despite the Mahler connection, and the Brahms vs. Wagner/Bruckner debates in Vienna at the time, Schoenberg seemingly saw no reason not to have a foot in both camps.

Georg Solti in his notes to Moses und Aron says that when he was not getting the right performance from the orchestra, he told them to imagine they were playing Brahms (not Mahler).

He then was satisfied.

[Sergeant Rock]

I thought this was going to be another poll I couldn't participate in. My first thought: I love all three...equally. But pondering a bit I realized Schönberg is the man. As much as I love Berg's operas, I prefer Moses und Aron. And I couldn't live without those overheated romantic monsters, Guerrelieder, Pelleas und Melisande, Verklärte Nacht, the First and Second String Quartets; and later works like the Five Pieces Op.16, the Piano Concerto, Pierrot Lunaire, Variations for Orchestra, The Book of Hanging Gardens and so many more.

Sarge

[karlhenning]

In my preferences Alban Berg comes in 3rd place, although I love Wozzeck, the opus 6, the 2 quartets, the chamber concert. It may seem absurd, but I feel that he had a more deep influence in the next generation of composers than Schönberg or Webern.

I don't think that absurd at all;  the impact and significance of Wozzeck's international success on the stage were great, indeed.