How many Karajan Beethoven Ninths are there ... and which one is top choice?

[Bonehelm]

According to whom?

Me. And it's enough, because it's only my opinion that it's the best in the world.

[DavidW]

Yeah well just keep in mind that I'm a fool when it comes to music.

I used to not be into Karajan, but after a wider survey my opinion now is that he usually does have a compelling and nuanced reading of what he records, but the subtlety in his conducting being heard in the recording depends on strongly on the sound quality (especially miking), and dg has dropped the ball many times but not always.  I'm not convinced that the wall of sound is the fault of the performance in other words.  btw not using them as fighting words just my humble opinion.

[Renfield]

Ah, here's an interesting topic! Alas, it has been a tiring day, and I am keen on getting some sleep, for now.

But when I've more time (and am more rested), I'll do a quick comparison of the three DG 9ths I am very well acquainted with. The Philharmonia 9th I haven't heard, nor the 1947 one which, from what I hear about it, is not in the same field as Karajan's later ones.

In any case, it's a DG comarison of Karajan Beethoven 9ths, "coming soon".

[dtwilbanks]

Me. And it's enough, because it's only my opinion that it's the best in the world.

Gotcha. I do have that recording and it is intense.

[MishaK]

The problem with any HvK/BPO 9th is the 'wall of sound' effect that Fluffy managed to inculcate into the Berlin Phil. This just doesn't work with the LvB 9th which already has some quite congested choral passages and separating out the soloists is quite hard. To me, all the HvK 9ths I've heard from '63 onwards suffer from this problem and as I result I don't own a single one of them, nor do I wish to do so.

I find the '63 DG recording lesds wall-of-sound-y than many of his later efforts. But this is mainly due to engineering. The '62 liver performance, being live, does not have that problem. It does have some very small performance issues and an intolerably Italianate tenor, though. The '63 DG is just a great performance on any level.

[BorisG]

1977.

[Harry]

I would prefer a 9th with a instrumental ending, but undoubtable the 1963 recording is the best of them all.

[Harry]

Yeah well just keep in mind that I'm a fool when it comes to music.

I used to not be into Karajan, but after a wider survey my opinion now is that he usually does have a compelling and nuanced reading of what he records, but the subtlety in his conducting being heard in the recording depends on strongly on the sound quality (especially miking), and dg has dropped the ball many times but not always.  I'm not convinced that the wall of sound is the fault of the performance in other words.  btw not using them as fighting words just my humble opinion.

In a sense you are right about that soundwall, but not entirely though.
I noticed, that the better your equipment and acoustic surroundings, the better they sound, in other words not a sound wall at all.
Karajan was obsessed by sound, and he bullied many a engineer into hysterics with his unrealistic demands.
When I met him, and talk a few moments to him, he told me, that he had a certain sound in his mind, but was often unable to tell the guys from the studio what he wanted.
Miking was one of the issues at hand.

[dtwilbanks]

I would prefer a 9th with a instrumental ending, but undoubtable the 1963 recording is the best of them all.

A 9th without a choral ending would not be the 9TH!!!     0:)       

[Harry]

A 9th without a choral ending would not be the 9TH!!!     0:)       

Well, Beethoven considered this quite seriously! Should have written both.

[dtwilbanks]

Well, Beethoven considered this quite seriously! Should have written both.

Actually, I'd be surprised that one without singing hasn't been recorded. Or, Harry, listen to the Liszt piano transcription. He did one, surely...

[Harry]

Actually, I'd be surprised that one without singing hasn't been recorded. Or, Harry, listen to the Liszt piano transcription. He did one, surely...

I was always sort of hoping that someone talented enough would rewrite the ending and use the vocal material, to be transformed in a instrumental ending, but so far........
Gosh ,yes, the piano transcriptions are nice enough, but that is not quite the same, now is it?

[Mark]

The Ninth ... without the chorale? Unthinkable!

[Harry]

The Ninth ... without the chorale? Unthinkable!

Well Beethoven had serious doubts about the choral ending, very serious.
I think the choral ending apart from the words quite terrible.

[Mark]

Well Beethoven had serious doubts about the choral ending, very serious.
I think the choral ending apart from the words quite terrible.

Well, there we must agree to disagree. Few pieces of music fill me with such immense emotion as that finale, chorale and orchestral playing combined.

[dtwilbanks]

I was always sort of hoping that someone talented enough would rewrite the ending and use the vocal material, to be transformed in a instrumental ending, but so far........
Gosh ,yes, the piano transcriptions are nice enough, but that is not quite the same, now is it?

No, it is not the same. You are correct. But, as they say, it ain't bad.

[Harry]

Well, there we must agree to disagree. Few pieces of music fill me with such immense emotion as that finale, chorale and orchestral playing combined.

I fear there will be many to disagree with me................

[Haffner]

The soprano fugue toward the end of the 9th is one of the most Affirming, Angelic sounds ever. Just my opinion.

[marvinbrown]

The Ninth ... without the chorale? Unthinkable!

  I'd go so far as to call it blasphemous!  Remember, Wagner  0:) saw in Beethoven's 9th Choral justification or affirmation to his music dramas......simply put, Wagner saw the genesis of his music dramas in Beethoven's 9th Symphony that combined vocals with a symphonic score in way never before heard. Oh yes the 9th is a VERY significant symphony indeed!!

  My recommendation:  the 9th with Karajan and the BPO 1963. 

  marvin   

[Mark]

  My recommendation:  the 9th under Karajan with the BPO. 

  marvin  

Yes, yes - but which one?